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Erik

On the production status and delivery

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2 hours ago, gfragkistas said:

I am surprised at the level of unprofessionalism. I sent an inquiry asking for a delivery estimate of my number 83xx order. I got a generic reply that I will get the unit before Christmas!! When I challenged this I got a lengthy totaly silly incomprehensible description of how things work(according to them). The long and short of this is that they have no idea about how much and when they produce, they have no idea about when and how many they will ship.

Pre-order any other phone and ask for a delivery date weeks ahead of time... They will either tell a vague estimate such as "before christmas", or they are very much making a gamble. It's quite normal not to have an exact idea of the yields the first production runs will have (it's simply fact of life not all phones produced will pass QA tests) so the exact size of batches may not be known, or the exact time when they are ready (depending on whether they aim for a date or a number of phones). And logistics companies are not the most dependable things in the world either. Would you rather be given a guess that turns out wrong? Some processes are simply inherently impossible to predict exactly, for example if you have a roofing contractor work on your home they can only proceed when it is not raining.

If you take a look at others doing the same, starting companies that are manufacturing a phone from the ground up (and even big guys like Samsung), you will also see it is almost never without hiccups and Hofstadters Law applies to their original target date. The only reason it is different when you buy a phone as a straightforward order is that there is a buffer of ready made stock to back up any hiccups in production and logistics.

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Why do we need to repeat the same arguments over and over again?

Yes, the early payment was a mistake and yes, the devices should have been shipped earlier or information should have been provided.

But come on! First devices are delivering and more are to come. Also, Liangchen (Waxberry) is providing almost daily updates. Don't focus on the past when the future is that bright.

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2 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

... you seem to be assuming things .... Why?? ...

I just did not explain myself very well, I guess - sorry - just sheer frustration - I ask a simple question, just for a percentage, three times, & always ignored.  All we hear instead is an algebraic attempt to explain slow factory production, which by any logic ought to have been plain weeks ago (seeing as they have, by all accounts been 'in production' since September?!)  Don't worry, I won't bother either the Forum, or F(x) any more.  Support are clearly are kept as ill-informed as us customers of any meaningful shipping information 🙁

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Also, batches may be in terms of shipping lots, not manufacturing.  They peeled off a small shipping batch to make sure the logistics could be worked out, but the factory might be producing a a fairly steady pace. Again, I don't know anything for sure, but there is a lot of room for interpretation here.

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10 hours ago, Tim6263 said:

"The batch size will increase (quite rapidly) and we aim to deliver to everyone under batch 3. ... we start with X amount of production and we get (X - Y) units that can be shipped. With the experience we learned during this process, we can then do 2X amount of production and we can ship (2X - Z) units, where Z < 2Y  Now we have passed the X and will finish the 2X this week."

So if Batch 1 = X, & Batch 2 = 2X, then the 2nd batch isn't going to fulfill many general pre-orders coz they'll still be completing IGG orders...  They will barely have time to get Batch 2 through customs & shipping before Christmas; so no chance for Batch 3.

So I won't expect my Pro1 until 2020...


Also production batches do not necessarily equals delivery batches.
They could f.e. do 1 step a day. That would mean 2X in the first week or so, 4X in the next.

We can not assume the size of the second delivery batch from the information we have. Could be 2X but also 6X, 14X ...

10 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

I do not know any more details than you, but you seem to be assuming things being serial and not parallel. Why?? It would seem HIGHLY unlikely that they did not start producing batch 2 shortly after batch 1 was finished from the factory (not first after sent to consumer). And similar I would expect batch 3 to start shortly after batch 2 is produced.

They have previously told us that they chose this factory for their ability to scale rapidly, so for all we know batches could follow in increasing size and quick succession.

As eske said, they also can work parallel, so start Step 1 with 2X. After that Start Step 2 with 2X and restart Step 1 with 4X.
And like that a delivery batch consist of multiple production batches:

Day 1: 2X * Step 1
Day 2: 2X * Step 2, 4X * Step 1
Day 3: 2X * Step 3, 4X * Step 2, 6X * Step 1
Day 4: 4X * Step 3, 6X * Step 2
Day 5: 6X * Step 3

And so on...

This would mean the delivery batch would consist out of 3 production batches, which are only taking slightly longer than 1 batch.

We can not assume the size of the second delivery batch from the information we have. Could be 2X but also 6X, 14X ...

 

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17 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

If I ever order an aPple device again, I think I would better write a psychiatrist... 🤕🤪

I'm right there with you. My seasoned Xperia work phone developed battery and touch screen faults. The replacement they've given me is an iPhone. 😐

I mean I recognise that the hardware is pretty decent. It has some slickness and nice touches, but a lot of the time it's so annoying I want to throw it. Basically it works fine, so long as you only want to do what Apple want you to do, and in the way they want you to do it. There are so many things I've taken for granted in Android that iOS just doesn't let you do. It feels like "my first smartphone" more than anything else.

Edited by glumreaper
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2 hours ago, Doktor Oswaldo said:

As eske said, they also can work parallel, so start Step 1 with 2X. After that Start Step 2 with 2X and restart Step 1 with 4X.
And like that a delivery batch consist of multiple production batches:

That was not quite what I meant. As this would prevent them from learning from the previous batches. What I meant was that the whole process is likely to be in parallel, that is a batch is likely to by manufactured WHILE the previous batch is on it's way through shipping and customs from factory over warehouses to the consumer..

 

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2 hours ago, glumreaper said:

I'm right there with you. My seasoned Xperia work phone developed battery and touch screen faults. The replacement they've given me is an iPhone. 😐

I mean I recognise that the hardware is pretty decent. It has some slickness and nice touches, but a lot of the time it's so annoying I want to throw it. Basically it works fine, so long as you only want to do what Apple want you to do, and in the way they want you to do it. There are so many things I've taken for granted in Android that iOS just doesn't let you do. It feels like "my first smartphone" more than anything else.

My experience was also that it is decent inner hardware but sloppy workmanship and horrible software.

It is a few yeas back (Ip6- with Ios 8 and 9) but it was appalling that even the most basic stuff was at the bug-level my old StarTac were at... see this

The iJail you get in is both the worst and the best of Ios. Allowing people to do nothing has the positive effect of reducing the risk of accidents.
A bit like if you never leave your house, you are highly unlikely to be run down by a car. Not a trade-off to my liking though. But for some it could be.

That their greed is felt all over is another thing, but that is (in comparison) a lesser issue.

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44 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

That was not quite what I meant. As this would prevent them from learning from the previous batches. What I meant was that the whole process is likely to be in parallel, that is a batch is likely to by manufactured WHILE the previous batch is on it's way through shipping and customs from factory over warehouses to the consumer..

 

Sorry to misinterpret you. But they could learn and improve the single process steps with my proposed method.
But anyway my point is, that a single delivery-batch could be made of multiple production batches. So until further information we can not assume how big the batch is.

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56 minutes ago, Krzysieq said:

@Erik @Waxberry Any rough estimate You guys could provide on general availability in the EU? Realistically - before the new year or probably not? 

There was a comment on this thread recently confirming the aim to have general availability and stock in the week before Christmas.

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When will i get mine?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

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15 minutes ago, kashif said:

When will i get mine?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Every question mark beyond 3 delays yours by another day 😅

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31 minutes ago, kashif said:

No!!!!!

ok i take back my question marks.

when will i get mine???

Best guess without more specific order information and based on lurking on these 50 pages since topic creation, 75% chance to get yours before Christmas, 25% chance in 2020.

 

I had a dying device early in the year, thought I could nurse it along until June...had to order a Galaxy Note because the wait was just too long. Haven't cancelled my order in hopes that the date doesn't slip again and I have a lot of interest at my work for a new keyboarded phone (they were asking me about the Priv when one of them had a HTC Desire Z that just died, I recommended they check out the Pro1 to great amazement). TL;DR -> I feel your passion to get the device ASAP.

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2 minutes ago, Maplesteel said:

Best guess without more specific order information and based on lurking on these 50 pages since topic creation, 75% chance to get yours before Christmas, 25% chance in 2020.

 

I had a dying device early in the year, thought I could nurse it along until June...had to order a Galaxy Note because the wait was just too long. Haven't cancelled my order in hopes that the date doesn't slip again and I have a lot of interest at my work for a new keyboarded phone (they were asking me about the Priv when one of them had a HTC Desire Z that just died, I recommended they check out the Pro1 to great amazement). TL;DR -> I feel your passion to get the device ASAP.

Well i am willing to pay over $3000 to get pro1

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20 hours ago, Waxberry said:

I think it is very easy to put a conclusion such as "amateur" or "unprofessional" to anything doesn't meet expectations. From restaurant failed to cook a meal meets customers specific  taste to train did not come in time. Anything can be unprofessional if it happens.

But in reality we all know life doesn't always go as expected, there is no simple definition of professionalism but many many small factors. A simple conclusion like this can't take into account of every aspect but only show the original PoV over simplifies this world.

But nonetheless I take the criticism. We probably indeed can be defined as "unprofessional" because the whole team from marketing to R&D to manufacturing adding up together is probably smaller than a PR department of a big player. But we aimed high and we wanted to deliver something they can't. We are unprofessional also because we also didn't have deep pocket to pay for another round of components if first manufacturing goes wrong. Or to hire more work force to help on some small aspects and for the team to take a holiday. 

I guess non of the above matters because the device did come as originally planned, so I accept that. And I am proud even Samsung Huawei etc with the deep pocket they are also unprofessional with their folding phones. Which despite being expensive, not more difficult than what we are doing. 

Also let me clear that when we took payment on the beginning of August we intended to dispatch by September. I didn't know where you got the mis-placed information which was definitely incorrect. 

Well how would you feel as a consumer that paid for an item over 4 months ago and never got it? The frustrations are well founded in my opinion.

It's all water under the bridge at this point. Live and learn. If anything I hope it gives you a better appreciation for how fast the industry moves

Edited by npatel1050

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22 hours ago, gfragkistas said:

A bunch of amateurs trying to do business..........

Isn't this an accurate definition of a term "startup"? 😉 Please, be patient. I'm waiting for QWERTY slider for more than 2.5 years (I'm in a first hundred of IGG backers), I'm live in not rich country (so Pro1's price is not something cheap for me) and I'm still not blaming or swearing anyone =)

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2 hours ago, npatel1050 said:

Well how would you feel as a consumer that paid for an item over 4 months ago and never got it? The frustrations are well founded in my opinion.

I'm fine! I have no reason to think not to get my device soon. If there is a problem I'm willing to wait much longer. Patience is the key here.

 

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22 hours ago, gfragkistas said:

A bunch of amateurs trying to do business.......... 

 

20 minutes ago, rinrailin said:

Isn't this an accurate definition of a term "startup"? 😉 Please, be patient. I'm waiting for QWERTY slider for more than 2.5 years (I'm in a first hundred of IGG backers), I'm live in not rich country (so Pro1's price is not something cheap for me) and I'm still not blaming or swearing anyone 😃

Also, they are definitively not amateurs if we  are speaking about engineering (electrical, mechanical, etc...)
If they would be amateurs then they could not build up a complete phone from scratch which meets regulations, works reliably and looks robust...

Maybe if we are speaking about marketing and logistics, then they were somewhat amateurs, but this is not the most important aspect and also should not make them automatically amateur in a global term.
...and as of now, they are going to be experienced in logistics and maybe also in marketing... so at last, they will be professionals in all terms. 🙂

...and also then they will not be a startup anymore. 🙂

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1 hour ago, mcdinner said:

Patience is the key here.

 

 

16 minutes ago, michael.bosscha said:

No, function is key!

No no no, you click clack the keys!

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Do we have an update on second and third batches? Last post I heard from Chen they we're supposed to leave the factory early this week but I don't think anyone got a stock assignment email from the second batch

Glad people got delivery but my phone may still be at least a month away

Edited by npatel1050
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11 minutes ago, npatel1050 said:

Do we have an update on second and third batches?

Yes, it would be good to have an update - even if second batch still not sent yet it would be good to know its current state like currently under packaging or anything.
(Also maybe currently expected shipment date and possible uncertainities or uncertainity factor in estimated percent.) 🙂

As of third batch, it would be good if we may hear something about if their productions have started or will start right after second batch leaves, or if there are any information about them.

However, I really hope they will fulfill every preorders before Christmas and will have some stocks and time which is enough for new orders to also arrive.
(Usual demand would be much higher before Christmas than just after the first few months so it would be good to not miss that chance...)

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