Pro¹ X – state of production and delivery

[Hook 2,655]

59 minutes ago, throwaway9284939 said:

Expansys having a backdoor deal

I actually don't think this was a "backdoor" deal.  The phones for supporters were put on palettes and sent to the Logistics warehouse to be sent out to backers in August.  They also produced a limited run for Expansys Retail which were timed to go out and made available following shipment of the perks.  What put a wrench in the works is that they hit a wall when a problem came up with their logistics contract. However, Expansys retail had received their units and proceeded to put them on sale (probably and agreed upon date that was supposed to be post-shipment) with only a minor markup from Wholesale while our perks languished at the logistics warehouse.

Is there a conspiracy involved in the fact the Expansys was handling both logistics and sales.  Probably not.  Expansys is a big company.  I doubt Retail even knew what was going on in the logistics operation. 

Doesn't make the situation any better, but I don't think this was intentionally underhanded.

[steff 41]

35 minutes ago, Rob. S. said:

Depending on region and carrier, the Pro1 X is usable,

That was a terrible comment because it included the quoted sentence.

[Rob. S. 1,559]

34 minutes ago, steff said:

1 hour ago, Rob. S. said:

Depending on region and carrier, the Pro1 X is usable,

That was a terrible comment because it included the quoted sentence.

I don't understand. What I do understand perfectly is that there are deal-breaking issues for many if not most buyers, but, for a fact, me, I'm using a Pro1 X for half a year now as the only smartphone I carry and I have everything more or less functional, so there *are* such regions and carriers, and that's why there *are* people who buy those used phones, pay good money, and leave good ratings, too. That's what my comment was about. For some time to come, there will be demand for the Pro1 X even if it doesn't work at all in large parts of the world, because there are parts where it can be made to. 

For me, connectivity is not good but usable, both for mobile data and voice, at least as long as I'm running the LTE Discovery app in No-LTE cycle mode. And if I need even more, I carry a tiny mobile router. No problems with Wifi whatsoever. I also use the Pro1 X frequently to download photos from my mirrorless system cameras via the Wifi that's set up by the camera. Works like a charm. Again, I understand everyone's problems. But the phone is still far from becoming worthless on the used market, as anyone can see who opens up ebay. So even if someone doesn't want to use it or actually cannot (and also is sick of waiting for Fxtec to finally get the necessary bugfixes out), they *will* be able to sell their phones for a decent price for quite some time to come, even if Fxtec doesn't get those updates out. Let alone if they do.

Edited March 14 by Rob. S.

[claude0001 1,150]

3 hours ago, throwaway9284939 said:

Is there any other course of action that can be take to get my money back that isn't "wait to get your phone then resell it"?

As harsh as it sounds, in retrospect, F(x)tec’s biggest mistake was to keep up the effort of delivering all promised devices to their IGG backers. That they tried (and are still trying) to get a device to any one who invested in the Pro1-X crowdfunding campaign is honourable, but, from a business point of view, it was the wrong decision.

When it became clear that the SD835 could no longer be delivered, they should have declared the IGG campaign a fail, taken the money, and invested it fully into development of a viable successor of the Pro1, without committing to delivering any devices beyond prototype or pre-production units. That would have allowed them to stay in business after the unexpected EoL of the (relatively successful) Pro1.

As we all know, they did not do this. They clung to the idea that they could develop a successor phone and deliver it to all backers. Something that was obviously not planned at the start of the IGG campaign. In result, they rushed into full-scale production of a Pro1 successor without sufficient QA.

Now, the damage is done. I no longer believe the Pro1-X’s connection problems will be solved by some OTA magic. F(x)tec have been "in the final sprint" to provide such a fix for too long. I think the device has problems with its RF hardware, full stop. Of those who unbox it, some will be lucky enough to be in region where the phone works at first. But soon they will travel around and find that  the device simply cannot fulfil that "my-always-on-mobile-office" promise made in the ads.

Sadly, I think this is the end. F(x)tec had this one chance to make their next phone and they missed it. Even I would hesitate to support them if they were to launch a Pro2 campaign now.

[steff 41]

53 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

As harsh as it sounds, in retrospect, F(x)tec’s biggest mistake was to keep up the effort of delivering all promised devices to their IGG backers. That they tried (and are still trying) to get a device to any one who invested in the Pro1-X crowdfunding campaign is honourable, but, from a business point of view, it was the wrong decision.

When it became clear that the SD835 could no longer be delivered, they should have declared the IGG campaign a fail, taken the money, and invested it fully into development of a viable successor of the Pro1, without committing to delivering any devices beyond prototype or pre-production units. That would have allowed them to stay in business after the unexpected EoL of the (relatively successful) Pro1.

As we all know, they did not do this. They clung to the idea that they could develop a successor phone and deliver it to all backers. Something that was obviously not planned at the start of the IGG campaign. In result, they rushed into full-scale production of a Pro1 successor without sufficient QA.

Now, the damage is done. I no longer believe the Pro1-X’s connection problems will be solved by some OTA magic. F(x)tec have been "in the final sprint" to provide such a fix for too long. I think the device has problems with its RF hardware, full stop. Of those who unbox it, some will be lucky enough to be in region where the phone works at first. But soon they will travel around and find that  the device simply cannot fulfil that "my-always-on-mobile-office" promise made in the ads.

Sadly, I think this is the end. F(x)tec had this one chance to make their next phone and they missed it. Even I would hesitate to support them if they were to launch a Pro2 campaign now.

Sadly imho this is the first really realistic comment on the mistake Fxtec made. I think 99,9% of forum members wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to judging Fxtecs decision making in the IGG campaign.

[EskeRahn 5,178]

1 hour ago, steff said:

Sadly imho this is the first really realistic comment on the mistake Fxtec made. I think 99,9% of forum members wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to judging Fxtecs decision making in the IGG campaign.

I think the worst problem in the judging is our lack of real knowledge of what was known when. In hindsight things look terrible, but that is not the same as saying that they did when the decisions were actually made.

But sure their reputation is tarnished no matter if any actual 'guilt' can be placed of them doing stuff they knew were bad.

I bet many that would be interested in a Pro2, would wait shelling out till it was actually available, and they hear the user reactions. Some of us feel certain that these are good guys fighting like lions to actually deliver, but I bet we are few left that would gladly invest in a Pro2-IGG-campain.

Two things that talk highly in their favour
1) In the Motorolo-mod camapain, Chen offered ANYONE either a full refund or a voucher, at our own choosing.
2) They did NOT fold with all that hit with the Swindle, the Corona and you name it, but keep on fighting though drip-wise delivering.

Some commenters claim them as crooked, if that was so they have had plenty of opportunities to take-the-money-and-run in both these projects. And that they did not, in my book vouch for their good and honest character, and that is why I personally would not hesitate to back again.

[steff 41]

9 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

I think the worst problem in the judging is our lack of real knowledge of what was known when. In hindsight things look terrible, but that is not the same as saying that they did when the decisions were actually made.

But sure their reputation is tarnished no matter if any actual 'guilt' can be placed of them doing stuff they knew were bad.

I bet many that would be interested in a Pro2, would wait shelling out till it was actually available, and they hear the user reactions. Some of us feel certain that these are good guys fighting like lions to actually deliver, but I bet we are few left that would gladly invest in a Pro2-IGG-campain.

Two things that talk highly in their favour
1) In the Motorolo-mod camapain, Chen offered ANYONE either a full refund or a voucher, at our own choosing.
2) They did NOT fold with all that hit with the Swindle, the Corona and you name it, but keep on fighting though drip-wise delivering.

Some commenters claim them as crooked, if that was so they have had plenty of opportunities to take-the-money-and-run in both these projects. And that they did not, in my book vouch for their good and honest character, and that is why I personally would not hesitate to back again.

Everybody has his own opinion and i am not trying to convince you in any way, i just disagree. I personally do not like judgement of actions and decisions based on subjective impressions like "good and honest character". I want judgement based on the product it became in the end, the timeline it took, the IGG rules, which they broke etc. Also i want the judgement of this campaign be based on this campaign only and not older campaign like the Moto-Mod you mentioned. But the campaign should be judged mostly on the product itself and the lack of useability in several regions. This device tried to be an alternative phone and daily driver, but in Germany the device is not capable of achieving this. It just failed for me.

Edit: Forgot the most important critic point: Like Claude said, the failed, probably rushed, quality assurance has to be mentioned in judging this campaign.

Edited March 15 by steff
added critic

[Rob. S. 1,559]

2 hours ago, steff said:

Everybody has his own opinion and i am not trying to convince you in any way, i just disagree. I personally do not like judgement of actions and decisions based on subjective impressions like "good and honest character". [...]

You're misrepresenting what @EskeRahn did, reading it backwards. What he did was trying to objectively judge their character from thorough observation and actual evidence collected over four years, of which he also presented some, which you choose to brush aside without so much as a syllable. You're perfectly entitled to apply a different reasoning and come to a different conclusion, but to be taken serious in an actual discussion you would need to  take notice of his arguments and his evidence and counter them, not just reject his conclusion (which I think is well-founded) simply by saying "I don't like it".

No one is trying to tell you that everything's good and you have no reason to complain. It isn't, and you have. But you have to look behind the façade and ask, which alternatives could there even have been. My impression, based on closely and critically following this drama for about as long as @EskeRahn (while, unlike him, I didn't trust Mr Chen back then and chose the refund for the Moto Keyboard Mod they had had to scrap), is that the only alternative to attempting to make and sell a certain number of this problematic Pro1 X devices might already have been calling it a bust and closing shop.

This is also where I dare to disagree slightly with @claude0001; going Pro2 instead of Pro1X might have been just that critical bit more difficult to make it impossible at the time. It very well could have meant, again, a substantial number of customers to be contacted and asked for either refund or agreeing to a significant price increase, where even just a few refunds might already have meant the financial duress to become fatal. While their reasons for not leaving all IGG backers in the lurch might also have had to do with trust, something which they were already losing back then. Who would have trusted them again if they had just taken the backers' money without them getting anything? That would have been the first hard evidence in their history to date to fully justify any distrust that would have followed.

Whatever conclusion we arrive at, without insight into their books and records it will, of course, be highly speculative. With that in mind, and without hard evidence for culpable wrongdoing, the people in charge deserve the benfit of the doubt.

And it doesn't help anyone if we just continue to vent, either, as much as any anger about the current state of the Pro1 X is completely justified. Justified, though, doesn't automatically imply helpful.

Edited March 15 by Rob. S.

[steff 41]

18 minutes ago, Rob. S. said:

You're misrepresenting what @EskeRahn did, reading it backwards. What he did was trying to objectively judge their character from thorough observation and actual evidence collected over four years, of which he also presented some, which you choose to brush aside without so much as a syllable. You're perfectly entitled to apply a different reasoning and come to a different conclusion, but to be taken serious in an actual discussion you would need to  take notice of his arguments and his evidence and counter them, not just reject his conclusion (which I think is well-founded) simply by saying "I don't like it".

No one is trying to tell you that everything's good and you have no reason to complain. It isn't, and you have. But you have to look behind the façade and ask, which alternatives could there even have been. My impression, based on closely and critically following this drama for about as long as @EskeRahn (while, unlike him, I didn't trust Mr Chen back and chose the refund for the Moto Keyboard Mod they had to scrap), is that the only alternative to attempting to make and sell a certain number of this problematic Pro1 X devices might already have been calling it a bust and closing shop.

This is also where I dare to disagree slightly with @claude0001; going Pro2 instead of Pro1X might have been just that critical bit more difficult to make it impossible at the time. It very well could have meant, again, a substantial number of customers to be contacted and asked for either refund or agreeing to a significant price increase, where even just a few refunds might already have meant the financial duress to become fatal.

Whatever conclusion we arrive at, without insight into their books and records it will, of course, be highly speculative. With that in mind, and without hard evidence for culpable wrongdoing, the people in charge deserve the benfit of the doubt.

And it doesn't help anyone if we just continue to vent, either, as much as any anger about the current state of the Pro1 X is completely justified. Justified, though, doesn't automatically imply helpful.

Let me clarify it a little bit. I am talking about SELECTIVE PERCEPTION. You see what you want to see. You like a person and think he is good and honest and because of that you do not question his decisions and defend his actions. This goes back to my previous comment about fxtec community members with rose-colored glasses. I did not misinterprete his comment, i totally understood what he said. Imo Eske and you as well fall in the category of being affected by selective perception. As i said, in my opinion.

Edited March 15 by steff
spelling

[claude0001 1,150]

1 hour ago, Rob. S. said:

While their reasons for not leaving all IGG backers in the lurch might also have had to do with trust, something which they were already losing back then. Who would have trusted them again if they had just taken the backers' money without them getting anything?

Of course that would have been a tough decision to make. But, retrospectively, I think it would have been the right one, and a more experienced company would have gone that way.

The Pro1-X crowdfunding campaign was never meant for hardware development. It was about making a "collector's edition" of the existing Pro1 with improved alternative-OS support.

When the SD835 went EoL (something they should have seen coming btw.), they should have taken the chance to communicate that -- given these circumstances -- backers unfortunately cannot get the Pro1-X device they backed, but will be offered a yet-to-be-determined discount on the successor Pro2, now in development, as soon as that hits the market.

Of course there would have been outrage. But could it have been worse than what we have now?

I see the reasons why they did not do this: They see this as a community thing, they regard their backers as friends which they do not want to betray. That might make them good persons, but it's also the reason why they fail as a company ...

Edited March 15 by claude0001

[Rob. S. 1,559]

26 minutes ago, steff said:

Let me clarify it a little bit. I am talking about SELECTIVE PERCEPTION. You see what you want to see. You like a person and think he is good and honest and because of that you do not question his decisions and defend his actions. This goes back to my previous comment about fxtec community members with rose-colored glasses. I did not misinterprete his comment, i totally understood what he said. Imo Eske and you as well fall in the category of being affected by selective perception. As i said, in my opinion.

You're just repeating yourself, and you're wrong, and you're not listening. I could just as well have talked to a parking meter, that might have been a more fruitful exchange, so I'm stopping here. Just these last words – the reason for my partaking here is based on the wish to see the situation for the Pro1X owners and prospective owners improved, not to distribute blame the distribution of which helps no one, and as of now, there's still a small chance things actually will improve. It's only over when it's over, and if that day should finally come, everyone can distribute blame as they wish. Cheers & bye. 

Edited March 15 by Rob. S.

[Rob. S. 1,559]

5 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

Of course that would have been a tough decision to make. But, retrospectively, I think it would have been the right one, and a more experienced company would have gone that way.

The Pro1-X crowdfunding campaign was never meant for hardware development. It was about making a "collectors edition" of the existing Pro1 with improved alternative-OS support.

When the SD835 went EoL (something they should have seen coming btw.), they should have taken the chance to communicate that -- given these circumstances -- backers unfortunately cannot get the Pro1-X device they backed, but will be offered a yet-to-be-determined discount on the successor Pro2, now in development, as soon as that hits the market.

Of course there would have been outrage. But could it have been worse than what we have now?

I see the reasons, why they did not do this: They see this as a community thing, they regard their backers as friends which they do not want to betray. That might make them good persons, but it's also the reason why they fail as a company ...

Also, it might have not been possible with Indiegogo, as loose as their regulations obviously are (eg. in comparison to Kickstarter)...

[Hook 2,655]

Hook wanders in, excited that he just got an email with a tracking number for his Pro1x, notices that he seems to be interrupting some weighty discussion and scampers back out of the thread.

[throwaway9284939 6]

17 hours ago, Rob. S. said:

For me, connectivity is not good but usable, both for mobile data and voice, at least as long as I'm running the LTE Discovery app in No-LTE cycle mode. And if I need even more, I carry a tiny mobile router. 

"My phone works sometimes, all I have to do is install this app that fixes an inherent flaw in the OS and carry a black box with me everywhere I go."

[EskeRahn 5,178]

Unfortunately the Pro1X as well as the campaign for it is very far from flawless.

And sure the waiting is frustrating, and we do not even know if the known flaws can be fixed (or even reduced), and if so when. So perhaps a little sarcastic we can hope that this extremely long delivery (see also this) gives them more time to fix what can be fixed, so the agony of the flaws will hit fewer/shorter.

And the only constructive thing we can do really is to report any bugs with as much details we can. And for strange bugs not affection all, perhaps see if we can help finding a pattern, to help them reproduce the bug, that generally is the first step in fixing it.

What would have happened if this or that had been done differently, is contrafactual historywriting, and though interesting in exploring ways to avoid repeating mistakes in the future, is utterly useless in helping to improve the current situation.
It is a bit like talking about what Nokia keyboard phones we might have had if Microsoft did not inject Elop as their Trojan horse to bring the company to its knees so MS could buy it cheap...

[steff 41]

52 minutes ago, throwaway9284939 said:

"My phone works sometimes, all I have to do is install this app that fixes an inherent flaw in the OS and carry a black box with me everywhere I go."

Thanks for this comment. This perfectly shows what i mean with selective perception.

[Rob. S. 1,559]

3 hours ago, throwaway9284939 said:

21 hours ago, Rob. S. said:

For me, connectivity is not good but usable, both for mobile data and voice, at least as long as I'm running the LTE Discovery app in No-LTE cycle mode. And if I need even more, I carry a tiny mobile router. 

"My phone works sometimes, all I have to do is install this app that fixes an inherent flaw in the OS and carry a black box with me everywhere I go."

Yes, that's what I said (except it was an 'or', not an 'and', but never mind), and I didn't want to say anything other than that, either. Why do you repeat it? 

It's also what I explicitly mentioned when I offered my first Pro1X on ebay, plus the fact that this is in Germany and even there only with either Vodafone or T-Mobile as carrier. 

It is not my intention to make this device look better than it is. I'm just offering the small experience I have with this faulty phone so that others, too, might find a way to still actually use it instead of throwing it in their drawer or out of their (possibly closed) window and being angry. (Until a fimware update fixes the problem. At least the hope is still there.)

Edited March 15 by Rob. S.

[claude0001 1,150]

58 minutes ago, Rob. S. said:

I'm just offering the small experience I have with this faulty phone so that others, too, might find a way to still actually use it [...]

Thanks for sharing your experience. As you know, you shouldn't take people too seriously on the internet. Many trolls are actually nice people in everyday life, but somehow flip a switch when they sit down at a keyboard ...

Are you actually able to place and receive calls through VoWiFi while connected to the LTE router? While I don't think I would ever settle for such a solution, technically, the portable hotspot is an interesting workaround.

[Rob. S. 1,559]

36 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

Thanks for sharing your experience. As you know, you shouldn't take people too seriously on the internet. Many trolls are actually nice people in everyday life, but somehow flip a switch when they sit down at a keyboard ...

I admit I'm not completely free from a tendency to overreact on the internet, either...

36 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

Are you actually able to place and receive calls through VoWiFi while connected to the LTE router? While I don't think I would ever settle for such a solution, technically, the portable hotspot is an interesting workaround.

Yes, it usually works pretty well. Except earlier this week when I needed to call an electricity provider, and, after some ten minutes or so of a somehow weak but stable connection, navigating through several tiers of their customer support system, it suddenly broke off just when I had started to actually discuss my issue with someone in charge. But I blame this on a weak signal at the place where I had been, and there are signs that Vodafone has some major problems since a few days around here.

(As of now, I don't really want to consider the other option, which would be that my current QWERTY Pro1X has worse connectivity than my previous QWERTZ Pro1X... Anyway it does seem that I need to be really close to the Wifi router... While, funnily, at least my impression until now  is that it has better GPS precision...)

Edited March 15 by Rob. S.

[Casey 259]

Relating to LTE connection drops, I've compiled a user manual to fetch modem logs in our beta-testing group. If you are able to reproduce any issues relating to connectivity, please join our program and give it a try!

[EskeRahn 5,178]

17 hours ago, Rob. S. said:

While, funnily, at least my impression until now  is that it has better GPS precision..

I have noticed that the Pro1X has more satellites in view than the Pro1, but the actual position is with a worse accuracy.

[EskeRahn 5,178]

14 minutes ago, Casey said:

Relating to LTE connection drops, I've compiled a user manual to fetch modem logs in our beta-testing group. If you are able to reproduce any issues relating to connectivity, please join our program and give it a try!

The only issue with the Beta-program is the clause where you say that we void our warranty if we join. Not the best way to entice people to help. That is why I didn't join....

Quote

Beta software is not covered by our warranty and the same applies to all results of
usage that may lead to potential hardware damage.

 

[Rob. S. 1,559]

5 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

I have noticed that the Pro1X has more satellites in view than the Pro1, but the actual position is with a worse accuracy.

Indeed, that's what I found, too. Apart from that, though, my second Pro1X seems to be better than the first one.

[Casey 259]

20 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

The only issue with the Beta-program is the clause where you say that we void our warranty if we join. Not the best way to entice people to help. That is why I didn't join....

 

That's a fair comment. We do test these firmware internally first before we share them to our beta group. The current v2.1.6 beta firmware has been widely testing already amongst our community developers and it is stable. Our intention is not to 'deliberately' brick customers' devices. But I understand that most people are reluctant to join based on that clause. 

[EskeRahn 5,178]

4 hours ago, Casey said:

That's a fair comment. We do test these firmware internally first before we share them to our beta group. The current v2.1.6 beta firmware has been widely testing already amongst our community developers and it is stable. Our intention is not to 'deliberately' brick customers' devices. But I understand that most people are reluctant to join based on that clause. 

I might understand a clause like this with "alpha-releases", but the point of "beta" in general (as I Understand it) is to reach a wider group that is ready to accept even severe functional flaws, or even to return the device if bricked, but yet the company still honouring warranty, as the risk of a broken device is expected to be very small, and thus the company takes that risk, to gain the feedback from the users. That a beta test is often limited in numbers is obviously to reduce the risk for the company if many fails seriously.

I'm a little sad that FxTec don't use beta in this way. As we really need many of those experiencing the net-issues to help providing information

Frankly it is almost adding insult to injury to request users that have a device not working for them, to risk their warranty in helping you to fix the bug.... Just saying....

What about a softened clause that says that you still honour the warranty if people provides logging information and/or constructive feedback to FxTec - quid quo pro.