Can I install other Linux OS?

[shane 0]

Hi,

I like Fedora, can someone point me to some reading material on how to install Fedora on it instead of say the Ubuntu touch?

Thanks,

[_DW_ 628]

See here https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mobility

it looks very early days on the project the fact its aiming at pine phone.

Obviously they don't have pro 1 support it would require a developer to step up and get it working.  But the fact ubuntu touch works means there is a starting point I guess.

Edited August 20, 2021 by _DW_

[claude0001 1,352]

Up to now there is no Linux distribution that can run natively on the Pro1. The problem is that mainline Linux support for the Pro1 (and even more for the Pro1X) is in a quite early stage, so using an upstream Linux kernel on the device is not practically possible.

1 hour ago, _DW_ said:

But the fact ubuntu touch works means there is a starting point I guess

Unfortunately not. Ubuntu Touch (like SailfishOS) works by running a slimmed-down version of Android 9 (including the vendor-provided Kernel and closed-source driver binaries) under the hood. It then accesses the hardware functions via an Android compatibility layer (hybris). That way, only (GNU/)Linux apps specifically-written using libhybris can have access to all hardware functions (like e.g. GPU acceleration) and subdevices (modem, wifi, GPS, ...).

Many "real" Linux distributions targeting mobile devices explicitly reject the libhybris approach for various reasons, one of them being that using such workarounds does not help upstream Linux to improve.

That said, there are ways to use standard Linux distributions (but without their kernels) in a chroot of Android/Lineage. As also in this case, the Android Linux kernel is used, there are limitations regarding hardware access and GPU acceleration. But if those are acceptable, one is able to use almost the entire software ecosystem of the chosen distribution in parallel to Android/Lineage apps. See the linked thread for an entry point on the topic.

Edited August 20, 2021 by claude0001

[_DW_ 628]

16 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

Unfortunately not. Ubuntu Touch (like SailfishOS) works by running a slimmed-down version of Android 9 (including the vendor-provided Kernel and closed-source driver binaries) under the hood.

I hadn't looked into the details on how they achieved it and I guess it sort of makes sense to do that less development. 

[EskeRahn 5,471]

2 hours ago, _DW_ said:

I hadn't looked into the details on how they achieved it and I guess it sort of makes sense to do that less development. 

And as many phone hardware drivers (including for the Pro1) are closed source, it would be no easy task to rewrite them natively for a pure Linux experience.

[claude0001 1,352]

Do not get me wrong: There is work being done on mainlining the Pro1 (see e.g. this). The people doing that work deserve all our respect. Its also nice that Fxtec provide devices to the devs for reverse-engineering (they plan to do that also for the Pro1X).

But make no mistake: All we have up to now is proofs-of-concept. It would take a long time before any mainline kernel could be used for running the Pro1 in a practical way (i.e. such that it could actually be used as a mobile phone!). In fact, experience tells that this can easily take so long that the hardware becomes obsolete before it is fully supported ...

I think the Pro1(X) has been over-hyped in the media as a "Linux-phone", leading many newcomers to naively assume they can just "install" any random distro like they do on their laptops. This is not (!) the case: The Pro1(X) may not be "locked", but that does not make it an "open" device (in the sense of open-source).

Everyone who expects to run his phone relying exclusively on free (-as-in-"freedom") software, please proceed, there is nothing to see here! 😉 You wrongly think you want a Pro1, but in fact you are looking for a device like e.g. the Pine Phone.

[VaZso 1,998]

21 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

I think the Pro1(X) has been over-hyped in the media as a "Linux-phone", leading many newcomers to naively assume they can just "install" any random distro like they do on their laptops. This is not (!) the case: The Pro1(X) may not be "locked", but that does not make it an "open" device (in the sense of open-source).

Right, but also the effort (and willing) of SoC manufacturer(s) would be needed for easier and better support of their hardware which unfortunately does not exists and that is a shame as they could assemble a working kernel for Android.

24 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

but in fact you are looking for a device like e.g. the Pine Phone.

Right, Pinephone is much farther in the way of having a native Linux support, but they also experience challenges although the hardware is older.
They are improved a lot anyway, but Pro1 is a much more powerful device.

[claude0001 1,352]

Everything you write is correct @VaZso.

However, I also feel Fxtec could have stressed more clearly that, while they offer an unlocked phone, they choose not to follow an open-hardware approach. As far as I know, they never did that, probably in order not to damp too much the early enthusiasm in the community. Instead, they emphasized a lot the "other OS" option of the Pro1 (which, actually, means just "easy access to the bootloader"). They do so even more with the Pro1-X. Combined with the fact that even people with much experience in running Linux on servers and desktops often know little about running it on embedded systems, this is what gives people wrong ideas.

It is telling how at every second stop someone gets in here, explaining how much they look forward installing "Linux" in order to at last "get rid" of Android -- often noting with how much passion they hate the latter.

Guess what: You can't get rid of Android. Fxtec designed the Pro1 as an Android 9 device. Knowing that, now and in the foreseeable future, Android 9 will be the only software able to drive it -- always needed, no matter what alternative "operating systems" (Lineage, Sailfish, UbuntuTouch) you flash onto it. The situation will be very much similar with the Pro1X.

I do not rant. I like my Pro1! But I do believe these things should be expressed clearly.

Edited August 20, 2021 by claude0001

[VaZso 1,998]

@claude0001 you are right, however, I don't know people at F(x)tec are how deep into this field, also who write marketing materials may not has deep knowledge about it.

On the other side, one question is what F(x)tec has about the software (so not only the firm who works for them but themselves) and another question is what they can do legally.
So even if they have appropriate sources for some of the hardware, it is not legal to share a 3rd-party closed-source part - and if it is really closed in a way they have no access to it that makes things even harder becoming vulnerable towards other firms.

I don't know what Pro1-X benefit from XDA and what progress they may already have (if there is), but they may wanted to gain some support regarding this which may be overestimated being a lot of work anyway (but they may gain improvements)...

So, unfortunately, currently there is no real open hardware - one problem is the embedded code of any specific hardware like wlan controller, GSM radio, etc - they have also started to develop a new firmware for the PinePhone main core which had and may still has a really bad power management and the other problem is the closed source OS parts.

Anyway, also PCs had problems with Intel Management Engine for example.

Additionally, for Pro1, they have expressed that they will provide a pure Android with only slight modifications where it is necessary (like writing keyboard-related codes).
At first, I thought it is a good thing as unnecessary 3rd-party applications will not present.
...but I never thought that pure Android is as bad as it is.
I am not speaking about unoptimized things but the lack of a load of features - so there are a lot of features what every manufacturer does for they own and stock Android is simply dumb - no proper multi SIM handling, no proper ringtone handling, no proper multimedia volume handling, etc...

[Rob. S. 1,664]

42 minutes ago, VaZso said:

On the other side, one question is what F(x)tec has about the software (so not only the firm who works for them but themselves) and another question is what they can do legally.
So even if they have appropriate sources for some of the hardware, it is not legal to share a 3rd-party closed-source part -

Right, Fxtec is not who's making all this, the mainboard manufacturer ("IDEA international Development Ltd." in Shenzhen, China) is providing it. But I guess

@claude0001 knows that perfectly well and criticizes Fxtec's purposefully-unclear marketing rather than their not doing more in this regard...

[VaZso 1,998]

55 minutes ago, Rob. S. said:

But I guess@claude0001 knows that perfectly well and criticizes Fxtec's purposefully-unclear marketing rather than their not doing more in this regard...

Right, marketing is basically not my favourite part of the world...

[shane 0]

I see.. I'm guessing others like Volla Phone do the same with a slimmed-down version of Android? The main reason why I'm wanting to get away from android is mainly due to things like Pegasus and any other advanced malware that potentially infects iOS and Android devices. I wonder what hardware is completed in that Kernel that claude0001 mentioned somainline was working on https://docs.somainline.org/platform/msm8998/fxtec/pro1x/ will be interesting.

[mibry 14]

Droidian is making good progress. Not ready for daily use but getting closer. Based on Mobian for pinephone.

[claude0001 1,352]

22 hours ago, mibry said:

Based on Mobian for pinephone

More precisely: "Based on the non-kernel-parts of Mobian + Android 9 and Hybris".

It is true that some Pro1-specific work (obviously no Pro1X yet) is going on there, thanks for the heads-up. But for the reasons discussed above it still relies on Android 9 and is thus probably not what @shane was expecting.