Pro1 X Qwerty Layout (Not Shifted)

[Craig 1,435]

F(x)tec is using the Pro¹X as a way to introduce new keyboard layouts, but I noticed the latest proposal on IGG doesn't address the biggest issue with the original Pro¹ shifted qwerty layout (missing slash/question-mark key and the problems that causes and workarounds it necessitates), so I hope Fxtec uses this opportunity to not only un-shift but to also improve functionality, especially as alternate OS's like Linux are targeted.

I would like to propose two minor changes that will make it much better and more functional:  Function is key, right?

• Put /? and \| in standard US QWERTY positions
• Swap Slant_Arrow/Function keys with Symbol/Right_Alt key

I prefer International style [AltGr] key over [Sym], and just [Fn] over [➚], but think of that as a marketing decision.

This provides the following fixes and improvements:

• Adds Dedicated Slash/Question Mark Key
• Allows use of default Android & Linux keyboard layouts.
• Adds standard modifier key to right side for use with those layouts.

This solves all issues with existing qwerty by putting slash and question mark exactly where they should be - and most importantly off P&L - so that all layouts (including UK-English and US-International) will work exactly as intended and no longer require every OS to find a workaround.  The current Sym key is still not correctly assigned in stock Android but is Right_Alt/AltGr in Lineage, which allows it to function as the modifier key for standard AOSP layouts, and is a useful key to have in general.  This proposal suggests using the existing slant arrow keys as Right_Alt (like SailfishOS already does) and freeing up the existing Sym key for Function use.  This permits normal shift and slash key functionality on all standard keys without needing nonstandard layouts or weird hacks like pro¹ qwerty uses now.

The second example is the same layout with standard US-international keymap shown in blue.  Perhaps it could be sold as an "International Qwerty Version" with the default US International printed on it, but don't know if there is really room for three symbols on the small number row keys.   It's also shown for those who are not at all familiar with US-international to understand why users of other layouts want the modifier key on both sides of keyboard.  Alternatively if US International print seems a good idea but cannot comfortably print three symbols, they could just be printed on the letters but not symbol keys as below, which doesn't change the functionality when US International layout is selected.

Although "Fn" is not one of the standard PC keys used by default layouts, it is provided as an additional modifier that applications or OS can chose to use however they want to get keys that are missing; my assumption is Lineage would continue to use it for F1-F12 along the number row and PgUp/PgDn/Home/End on arrows keys, and if keyboard was labeled that way wouldn't hurt either.  Additionally Fn+Backspace could be added for delete, Fn+Shift could behave as Right_Shift and Fn+Ctrl as Right_Control for corner cases, and the same for Fn+\ (or Fn+Enter) as Ins  But even without a Function key, this keyboard is more functional than existing qwerty.  And this leaves Fx (Fxtec logo) for use as what Android calls Meta, what Linux calls Super, and what Microsoft calls the Windows key (all the same keycode).

As a bonus, this also avoids new users frustration when accidentally hitting Del instead of backspace.  On shifted qwerty, Del is under backspace, opposite of laptop keyboards and different than full-sized keyboards so often a bit of learning curve.  Considering backspace is most often used to correct errors while typing, while delete is used with arrows for editing or as a delete action-key in some applications, having it as an OS provided additional function would work well, however if a dedicated delete key is must-have, most of these goals are still achieved by replacing Fn with Del, and using Fx key for function if desired.

The label for the Right_Alt key doesn't matter, whether it be AltGr like an international keyboard or Sym like a legacy phone, or just Alt like a US keyboard (perhaps in sapphire blue).  Only Left_Alt keeps the smiley which is there because gboard and AOSP keyboard present an emoji menu for Left_Alt.  (AOSP keyboard presents symbol menu for Right_Alt).  Historically, most Android keyboard phones labeled Right_Alt as Sym, and Nokia phones additionally had a slant arrow.  AltGr and Fn labels are more linuxy/techy/international/standard in my opinion, but not the main point of this proposal, which is getting dedicated slash key and making standard keyboard layouts work.

Alternate print versions of the same layout, in this case [Fn]and [➚] for Function, blue Alt for Right_Alt, and blue US international on just the letter keys.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Craig

[SCΛRECROW 57]

I wonder if we could get retrofit kits for the original Pro1, it would be great.

[matf-kabouik 414]

I agree with @Craig's suggestions. I liked the shifted qwerty, and purchased the Pro1x thinking it still had the same layout (based on pictures). However, seeing now that it is non-shifted, I think Craig's suggestions make perfect sense.

 

- Freeing P and L's second layer would be great and more standard

- ?/ next to L would also be closer to full keyboards

- Moving \| to Sym should not be an issue for anyone, even coders

- Keeping yellow arrows duplicated on left and right is a must for international layouts (no one wants to type right arrow + o or left arrow + e)

- Fx key should be Super (I don't think SailfishOS considers it Super or even Meta yet, I could only achieve that using custom xmodmap commands in Xephyr within Debian container)

Edited October 28, 2020 by matf

[silversolver 849]

I agree with 1.5 of Craig's suggestions. :P I think only the right slant arrow should be right alt; the left one should stay available for accented characters in an INTL layout. Fx should be used for \| instead of SYM, which is used occasionally, and yes, by me. Also, the right CTRL and ALT should be swapped; they'd be backwards compared to a PC keyboard as proposed.

MORE EDIT: Now I read @matf's comment and agree with him so a big bah humbug to me LOL

Edited October 28, 2020 by silversolver
I'm backward

[Slion 1,201]

7 hours ago, Craig said:

#1. Change \| to /?

#2. Change Sym to \|

#3: Change Slant Arrows to Right Alt. 

Yes please. It would also be nice if left and right, ctrl and shift could be distinct.
Doing this removes the need for a Fn key aka slant arrow key to access basic functions. However we still want Fn to access special features F1-12 or screen brightness or other fancy stuff.

7 hours ago, Craig said:

Change Slant Arrows to Right Alt. 

Just the right Fn key aka Slant Arrow. Keep the left Fn key please.

[Slion 1,201]

7 hours ago, Craig said:

the left slant arrow since its pretty much useless could be another Right_Alt/AltGr

Please no, keep the left Fn key aka Slant Arrow. Have the right one be right alt.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Slion

[Craig 1,435]

3 hours ago, matf said:

- Keeping yellow arrows duplicated on left and right is a must for international layouts (no one wants to type right arrow + o or left arrow + e)

That's exactly why I said make the left slant arrow also right alt - this is what they've already done in Sailfish for that very reason.    That actually makes it better than PC layout that doesn't have right alt on left side.   If they remain slant arrows or change the print to "Alt" or "AltGr" etc, there's still one on each side, and Right_Alt is the key every single Android & Linux default layout expects for 3rd layer.  Not Fn or Slant arrow.  So to me that's the least important whats printed as long as the functionality is there.

 But I do hope they change the print on the Sym key to |\ and put /? where it should be, in both print and of course hardware.    Sym key is not used in stock or on a pc keyboard and is right_alt in lineage so not needed in stock, and even if they dont change the print I'm pretty sure lineagedevs (like sailfishos devs) care more about funtionality than what's printed and would use it as AltGr anyway (like Sailfish already does).  The only reason LIneage used the sym key as right_alt is cuz  it was available and what other devices (like photon q) labeled right_alt because its the key used with international layouts for other symbols.  That and fxtec printed the slash and questionmark on the P&L keys which is the main thing that needs to be removed.  For example with US international they're supposed to be ö and ø.

I did think of which would I prefer, and me personally, I'd rather make left arrow Fn for F1-F12 on top row and PgUp/PgDn/Home/End on arrows like lineage offers now.  But I know people like kabouik and others who really really really want alt-gr on both sides for international layouts so that is actually the only reason I suggested it that way, if it were just me I don't need it, but I want this to be ideal for everyone.  I had also considered making it the "menu" key as thats the only other obvious key pro¹ doesnt have that it could be used for, but I understand exactly where you and others are coming from in regards to international modifier on both sides.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Craig

[Craig 1,435]

1 hour ago, Slion said:

It would also be nice if left and right, ctrl and shift could be distinct.

When I proposed this minor change it was with the assumption they cant make any hardware changes.   This would be super nice tho, but I don't think they can do it as easily.  They have 8x8 matrix so 64 keys max, and I dont think wanna make circuit changes, only firmware changes.   However if they could change circuit, then yes I 100% agree, the two slant arrows are currently separate in hardware but have not been used separately by any OS yet and my proposal frees up one of them.  So ideally it could be used to make left & right shift (or ctrl) distinct.  I prefer shift cuz I've already ran into two games that use left and right shift separately, but none t hat mattered for ctrl.   [One was actually a hassle cuz R_Shift is used to get into settings where the keyboard map settings are.... so couldn't remap in-game to workaround it, have to remap with lineage]

Edited October 28, 2020 by Craig

[Slion 1,201]

Here is my Pro1X QWERTY proposal, which hopefully is also yours @Craig:

 

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/c8cd79243e2f4470b949991786952262

All yellow characters are accessible using shift.
Fn aka Function formerly Slant Arrow is mostly there to enable media and other advanced or device specific functionalities.
Fx Meta is basically our system key. It would be the Start key on Windows, on Android keyboard it is usually shown as a magnifying glass.

Hope I did not miss anything. Feedback is most welcome.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Slion

[Craig 1,435]

I'd still move Z to the right so the rest of the letter keys are layed out correctly relative to each other (which means moving backslash to where Z is now).  The letter keys relative to each is other is important for muskcle memory/position and that above layout would totally mess me up, even the regular shifted is better....

And with that back, then i think the grave/tilde makes more sense there and backslash/pipe where you put grave/tilde.  But that doesnt really matter.  The big problem in my opinion with that is the shifted bottom row letters.

(But other than that, yeah, same as I said in last message... works for me, but not ideal for other languages, so make that left Fn into another AltGr for non-English benefit at the expense of convenient F-keys pgup/pgdn/home/end/ins for everyone else).

 

edit: crossed out section no longer applicable

Edited October 28, 2020 by Craig

[Slion 1,201]

9 minutes ago, Craig said:

I'd still move Z to the right so the rest of the letter keys are layed out correctly relative to each other (which means moving backslash to where Z is now).  The letter keys relative to each is other is important for muskcle memory/position and that above layout would totally mess me up, even the regular shifted is better....

And with that back, then i think the grave/tilde makes more sense there and backslash/pipe where you put grave/tilde.  But that doesnt really matter.  The big problem in my opinion with that is the shifted bottom row letters.

Thanks I missed that. I'll fix it.

10 minutes ago, Craig said:

(But other than that, yeah, same as I said in last message... works for me, but not ideal for other languages, so make that left Fn into another AltGr for non-English benefit at the expense of convenient F-keys pgup/pgdn/home/end/ins for everyone else).

Fn can still be used for Internationale characters too, we don't want another duplicated modifier.

[Slion 1,201]

19 minutes ago, Craig said:

I'd still move Z to the right so the rest of the letter keys are layed out correctly

I fixed it in that post above.

[Craig 1,435]

26 minutes ago, Slion said:

Thanks I missed that. I'll fix it.

Fn can still be used for Internationale characters too, we don't want another duplicated modifier.

We don't, but users of international layouts do.   Even tho I only use it occasionally é or ¹, i do understand people who use it regularly want that same key on both sides, which really does make sense for a thumb keyboard without sticky right_alt - which doesnt seem like we're ever gunna get so dealing the best with what we have.    But yeah for my personal use I dont care either way, but for the benefit of all earth, I see the reason for it to be available on both sides.   Remember, one main target for Pro¹-X is linux, and linux layouts (just like default Android layouts) use right_alt as the modifer for third level keys.   No default layout ever uses Fn key, thats not a normal one of the 102 key keyboard keys.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Craig

[Craig 1,435]

 

That keyboard editor you linked is pretty cool... for fun I put US Intl (without shift) on so people would know what AltGr is for with that layout.  But of course different layouts will result in different things so I dunno if it would be a good idea or bad idea to print us international, but I wouldn't be opposed.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Craig

[Slion 1,201]

46 minutes ago, Craig said:

We don't, but users of international layouts do.

Well I'm French currently living in Germany. Most my keyboards are AZERTY except my Pro1.

52 minutes ago, Craig said:

No default layout ever uses Fn key, thats not a normal one of the 102 key keyboard keys.

Most every compact keyboards out there have one including most laptops. Except that it's behaviour is usually hardcoded by the manufacturer. Thankfully on Android it does not have to be and can be fully customised through layouts. 

55 minutes ago, Craig said:

I see the reason for it to be available on both sides

We already have Alts on both sides. We don't need a side with two Alts.

57 minutes ago, Craig said:

Remember, one main target for Pro¹-X is linux, and linux layouts (just like default Android layouts) use right_alt as the modifer for third level keys.

They could use Fn all the same either by actually using it or remapping it to Alt if they so wish.

[Craig 1,435]

4 minutes ago, Slion said:

We already have Alts on both sides. We don't need a side with two Alts.

They could use Fn all the same either by actually using it or remapping it to Alt if they so wish.

International layouts all use AltGr/RightAlt as the modifier - left Alt is reserved for application use.  On PC you only have that on the right, but this is to benefit people using Pro¹ thumb keyboard so they want it on the left too.    No need to do any remapping of Fn key, it will work default out of the box with default android and linux layouts.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Craig

[Slion 1,201]

4 minutes ago, Craig said:

 

That keyboard editor you showed is pretty cool... for fun I put US Intl (without shift) on so people would know what AltGr is for with that layout.  But of course different layouts will result in different things so I dunno if it would be a good idea or bad idea to print us international, but I wouldn't be opposed.

I would leave pipe next to the space bar so as to enable two double modifier shortcuts using you left thumb, Ctrl+Shift and Ctrl+Fn and maybe even Shift+Ctrl+Fn for the most skilled users 😁

[Slion 1,201]

11 minutes ago, Craig said:

International layouts all use AltGr/RightAlt as the modifier - left Alt is reserved for application use.  On PC you only have that on the right, but this is to benefit people using Pro¹ thumb keyboard so they want it on the left too.    No need to do any remapping of Fn key, it will work default out of the box with default android and linux layouts.

I know what you are saying but to me it's a waste of a perfectly good modifier. Alt Gr on the right side can also be accessed with the left thumb for those few keys which are too far to the rights.

Moreover we are trying to align the Pro1 keyboard with regular compact keyboards and pretty much all of them have an Fn key to access media and device specific functionalities.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Slion

[Craig 1,435]

**EDIT: THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE DUE TO EXISTING HARDWARE CONSTRAINTS ANYWAY.** 

Feel free to ignore this proposal completely.   First post is current proposal.

 

  

On 10/28/2020 at 12:07 AM, Slion said:

I would leave pipe next to the space bar so as to enable two double modifier shortcuts using you left thumb, Ctrl+Shift and Ctrl+Fn and maybe even Shift+Ctrl+Fn for the most skilled users 😁

Damnit, there's always one more thing to consider.  That is very good point, cept made me think of it for us-intl, when you want shift-altgr for like ¡ or capitol ÁÅÉ etc.   Then I thought the next most likely would be for ctrl-alt-f4, i remember testing that under dosbox with lineage etc to make sure it worked, and was awkward.  So, with that considered, I made this.... the one's I posted before I'm more certain majority would like... this one I dunno, maybe making too many concessions just for easy intl use (like you said giving up use of perfectly good modifier potential with the two altgr already)... but maybe not, maybe this is better... I cant decide...
 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Craig

[Slion 1,201]

8 minutes ago, Craig said:

  

Damnit, there's always one more thing to consider.  That is very good point, cept made me think of it for us-intl, when you want shift-altgr for like ¡ or capitol ÁÅÉ etc.   Then I thought the next most likely would be for ctrl-alt-f4, i remember testing that under dosbox with lineage etc to make sure it worked, and was awkward.  So, with that considered, I made this.... the one's I posted before I'm more certain majority would like... this one I dunno, maybe making too many concessions just for easy intl use (like you said giving up use of perfectly good modifier potential with the two altgr already)... but maybe not, maybe this is better... I cant decide...
 

 

On that one you are drifting away from usual modifiers placement.
Here are what I would call the rules:

• Both Alts should be next to the space bar.
• Both Ctrls should be first and last on the row.

I would also really leave direction arrows to the right most position.

[Slion 1,201]

1 minute ago, Slion said:

Both Ctrls should be first and last on the row.

Unless you are a ThinkPad fan in which case on the left it is Fn then Ctrl instead of Ctrl then Fn. Let's not get into that though 🤣

Edited October 28, 2020 by Slion

[Craig 1,435]

8 minutes ago, Slion said:

On that one you are drifting away from usual modifiers placement.
Here are what I would call the rules:

• Both Alts should be next to the space bar.
• Both Ctrls should be first and last on the row.

I would also really leave direction arrows to the right most position.

Yep, thats how it is in the very first suggestion first post of this thread, obeys those rules and the suggestion.  And thats why I'm not 100% sure if I like it better or not.  But it was done with the goal of putting Shift next to AltGr so they can be pressed with the same thumb, that was the whole point of that layout, which is why the arrows moved and everything else.  And I realized it was weird.   Thats why Im not sure if its better.   And thats why I made the comments about concessions for international use etc.  As thats the main reason I can see three key combinations is shift-altgr, then next came alt-f4 and ctrl-alt-f4 thoughts....

Edited October 28, 2020 by Craig

[matf-kabouik 414]

2 hours ago, Craig said:

 

That keyboard editor you linked is pretty cool... for fun I put US Intl (without shift) on so people would know what AltGr is for with that layout.  But of course different layouts will result in different things so I dunno if it would be a good idea or bad idea to print us international, but I wouldn't be opposed.

This (maybe without the printed third-layer characters, because changes are sometimes useful for specific needs, but I wouldn't mind too much if they were printed anyway because they help new users with the default us-intl, even if it doesn't match my own configuration).

2 hours ago, Slion said:

I would leave pipe next to the space bar so as to enable two double modifier shortcuts using you left thumb, Ctrl+Shift and Ctrl+Fn and maybe even Shift+Ctrl+Fn for the most skilled users 😁

And this. But with AltGr next to Ctrl, not Fn. I don't think combinations of other modifiers with Fn are common, while Shift/Ctrl/AltGr combinations are.

I agree with Slion, it's really important to keep Shift, Ctrl and Yellow arrow clustered together on the bottom left corner. I would keep direction arrows on the bottom right so I didn't quote your latest layout, even though this limits the ability to combine modifiers with the right thumb, because it would be more standard and the combinations can already be done with the left thumb. Having modifiers at the right of arrows would be very confusing in my opinion. Other than that, the layout you proposed seems pretty good to me, as an us-intl user.

About duplicated third-layer modifier, as you pointed out, the constraints are really different when we're talking about a keyboard designed for touch typing. Having only one on my Linux laptop is no issue, but on a touch keyboard it makes half of the third-layer characters hard and inconvenient to compose. Since those third-layer characters are very common in other languages, two thumbs on the same side of the keyboard is not convenient enough for actual productivity. In Debian (LXC), I also use the yellow arrow (mapped as Alt) as my i3 modifier exactly because it is duplicated, this way I can use many WM keybinds easily without weird hand gestures.

But then, I don't know what are our possibilities for rebinding those at the kernel level. I know TheKit did change some things in the kernel when porting SailfishOS so that we could use Sym as /? for instance. I also was able to remap Fx as Super in xephyr (LXC) using simple xmodmap commands (but not in Sailfish nor in xwayland LXC, which has significant benefits over xephyr), but I'm not sure I could distinguish left and right yellow arrows. Are they not identical on the hardware side, like left and right Shift and Ctrl? Not sure it is actually feasible to distinguish them without hardware changes, which would close the debate.

Edited October 28, 2020 by matf

[EskeRahn 5,460]

Uh a lot has happened here since last I read.

But a quick note:
Remember that there hardware-wise seems to be 64 keys (8 by 8 grid internally), though physically 66 keys, so we can not get the suggested uncoupling of the modifier pairs...

[matf-kabouik 414]

I believe I would be pretty happy with that. Possibly with a different color for Shift and second-layer chars (yellow, if we keep it close to the current keyboards), but keeping those white would work too since this layout is now pretty close to desktop keyboards, so there's no need for extra hints on key combinations everyone is already expecting.

Depending on how Fx is mapped, perhaps there would be ways to use it as Super on OSes that have a use for it. I do not know.

Ctrl is still immediately after the space bar because we know both Ctrl keys are wired, so it's not possible to move one without significant hardware changes. Yellow arrows (AltGr) are probably wired too, hence duplicated AltGr (which is best for us-intl users anyway).

Edited October 28, 2020 by matf