Love the PowerHorse configuration in full qwerty ... But Battery ???

[aiamuzz 0]

Hi,

 

I really wanted some company to venture into a Qwerty smarphone in today's age and tech ... glad fxtec rose upto it !!!

 

a full slide out keyboard looks fantastic and a 6GB RAM sounds even more appealing ... but the 3200 Mah battery is a dampener ... such a low capacity battery is understandable in phones that vie thin and slim phones ... but in this phone where thin and slim is not the criteria any battery less than 5000 Mah is just plane and simple unacceptable ... if this phone is still in prototyping and testing phase(with production not yet started) ... then ... a power horse without power is a big misnomer in itself !!!

 

the f(x) team might want to consider a battery which is at least 5000 mah ... if not in this one(battery) area this otherwise great piece of hardware will be left wanting !!!

 

Hopeful of a bigger battery !!!

[EskeRahn 5,471]

Why do you think this is "low capacity"? This is not a device with gaming users as its primary target group.

I doubt that the stamina will be a problem for the large majority of users. You can compare with the Samsung S8-, that has an slightly smaller batter and higher display resolution.

Let us await the final unit and the optimised software before we evaluate how long a charge will last..

 

I'm actually glad that they did not use a bigger battery....

A bigger battery would have meant a heavier and thicker device. I will much rather top up the charge during the day In the rare case it would not last the day.

 

But that said, sure I would have preferred a removable battery-back-pack, and the option of using different sizes depending on the individual needs/usage pattern of the day. And that could have broadened the target audience - but on the other hand would also have increased the weight and thickness in it self....

[Keyahnig 80]

5000 mAh would have been overkill and would have made the device unnecessarily thicker. The hinge and the keyboard probably use quite a lot of space so arguing with the thickness doesn't make much sense. But it's true 3200 mAh isn't a lot.

My current daily driver is a OnePlus 5t. It has got pretty much the same specs as the Pro1 with a 3300 mAh battery. With heavy use I get through the day with about 15% remaining. I think it should be fine but I don't know how much battery the keyboard and the backlight consumes. I just hope 3200 mAh is enough.

 

[EskeRahn 5,471]

but I don’t know how much battery the keyboard and the backlight consumes. I just hope 3200 mAh is enough.

 

Next to nothing, compared with the rest, would be my estimate. The backlit bluetooth keyboards I have used have lasted for weeks on a charge of a tiny 50mAh battery, and they need a BT radio to communicate.

I bet it is much more important how good the carriers radio signal is, at the position we place the phone while idle....

In my experience, this can eat a substantial amount of the phones stamina. Don't leave it in the pocket while working at a desk, put it on the desk, and preferably where the reception is best (This goes for ALL brands and OSs) I have written quite a bit about battery usage and optimising stamina over the years, see here.

[vlycop 38]

I just checked on my LG G6 and the 3200mah battery don't do me a full day, i have to charge it in my car on the way back from work (thing i would not be able to do with the pro1 since the USB C is not aligned :( ) So i was a bit sad to see what i think is a "small" battery for my use case. On the other hand, i always carry a 30K mah battery, so i won't fall short any time. it just won't be better.

 

And yes, 24/7 vpn + a linux vm in the background + tasker + auto sync with my home lab ... i'm not a normal user... poor phone

[netman 1,424]

3200 is plenty to last trough the day on an SD835 with average use, and the device is pretty fat as it is, keeping it somewhat sleek massively increases the target audience I do believe. There is no way they could get more in there without making the device thicker and heavier than is sensible. Most phones on the market that have a huge battery like > 5000mAh are weird quirky mediatek things like the ones put out by oukitel, they got their place but the audience is somewhat limited as more people want something that actually fits their pocket than there are that want phone to last all week on one charge.

[netman 1,424]

But that said, sure I would have preferred a removable battery-back-pack, and the option of using different sizes depending on the individual needs/usage pattern of the day. And that could have broadened the target audience – but on the other hand would also have increased the weight and thickness in it self….

 

Now this is something I'd really like to see in a next iteration perhaps, as I am one of those that would buy an external charger and a few extra batteries to swap instead of charging.

[EskeRahn 5,471]

Now this is something I’d really like to see in a next iteration perhaps, as I am one of those that would buy an external charger and a few extra batteries to swap instead of charging.

 

Yeah. And in contrast to earlier phones with removable battery, it should have a small capacitor or battery, that can hold the power with screen off for say 10 seconds, while we swap the battery.

[netman 1,424]

netman wrote:

Now this is something I’d really like to see in a next iteration perhaps, as I am one of those that would buy an external charger and a few extra batteries to swap instead of charging.

Yeah. And in contrast to earlier phones with removable battery, it should have a small capacitor or battery, that can hold the power with screen off for say 10 seconds, while we swap the battery.

 

There's some PDAs and laptops back when that did this by having a backup battery for the RAM, even calculators today that still do it. My HP50g does that and so does my Tandy 102, I think it'd be a huge challenge to do the same with a phone that has a modern SoC though. The closest thing I can think of is thinkpads with the drive bay battery thing where you have two sizeable batteries you can swap individually.

[EskeRahn 5,471]

There’s some PDAs and laptops back when that did this by having a backup battery for the RAM, even calculators today that still do it. My HP50g does that and so does my Tandy 102, I think it’d be a huge challenge to do the same with a phone that has a modern SoC though. The closest thing I can think of is thinkpads with the drive bay battery thing where you have two sizeable batteries you can swap individually.

 

Well let\s try a little calculus. The standby current with screen off in aeroplane mode is somewhere along the lines of 0.2-0.4%/h, so let us be pessimists and say 1%/h of the capacity, so we would need 32mAh to last an hour, or 0.5mAh to last a minute, and 0.1mAh to last 12s. That does by far seem insurmountable to squeeze in as a battery or capacitor. I bet the control circuitry will take up more space....

[Siani_8 105]

I agree the phone should have had a bigger battery. Even my 2015 Priv has higher capacity.

[netman 1,424]

netman wrote:

There’s some PDAs and laptops back when that did this by having a backup battery for the RAM, even calculators today that still do it. My HP50g does that and so does my Tandy 102, I think it’d be a huge challenge to do the same with a phone that has a modern SoC though. The closest thing I can think of is thinkpads with the drive bay battery thing where you have two sizeable batteries you can swap individually.

Well let\s try a little calculus. The standby current with screen off in aeroplane mode is somewhere along the lines of 0.2-0.4%/h, so let us be pessimists and say 1%/h of the capacity, so we would need 32mAh to last an hour, or 0.5mAh to last a minute, and 0.1mAh to last 12s. That does by far seem insurmountable to squeeze in as a battery or capacitor. I bet the control circuitry will take up more space….

 

I had not thought this trough and you're right it's pretty realistic, even say we want to use an ultracapcitor because batteries wear out fast... First options I found looked good until I realized the ESR was on the order of 50 ohms or so which would make efficiency absolutely pathetic to the point it would work for seconds at best. But with some parametric search magic some have rather spectacular specs: https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-BC-Components/MAL219691263E3 Looking in the datasheet we can see it'll store 52.5Ws of energy, or about 14.5mWh, which gives us about 7.4 minutes of time in a perfect world (because 32mAh for 1hr life with 3.7v nominal battery voltage = 118mW, 52.5Ws/0.118w = ~7.4). Counting in ESR and the fact we can't discharge the cap below about 0.5v because the dc-dc converter needs something to work with, but it doesn't seem totally crazy to get at least a minute out of it and change batteries in that timeframe.

 

So unlike what I thought intuitively, it's indeed quite doable :).

[Hook 3,043]

thing i would not be able to do with the pro1 since the USB C is not aligned :( )

 

Sorry, I'm not sure what this means. How is the USB-C port not aligned, so that you can't charge it with a cable in the car. I'm not challenging. This is probably showing off my ignorance and probably that I missed something somewhere. Just looking for clarification.

 

Thanks. :-)

[Craig 1,435]

I like that idea for pro2. Besides the normal battery it comes with, and an ultra-long-lasting thick battery for the OP, their could be an ultra-slim battery for those of us who want a thinner phone and don't use a lot of battery. And most people would probably all end up buying another battery besides the one it comes with, especially if they're "hot-swappable" as you guys describe, so extra $.

 

I dont necesarilly see why it has to make the phone thicker. Just some type of removable (slide-off?) back cover that is itself the battery (and possibly whatever goes on the other side of battery like nfc etc if there's something that must be between battery and cover).

 

But not sure what's hard about charging usb-c phone in a car, unless I misunderstand what I read, I do it all the time with z2f...

[EskeRahn 5,471]

I had not thought this trough and you’re right it’s pretty realistic, even say we want to use an ultracapcitor because batteries wear out fast… First options I found looked good until I realized the ESR was on the order of 50 ohms or so which would make efficiency absolutely pathetic to the point it would work for seconds at best. But with some parametric search magic some have rather spectacular specs: https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-BC-Components/MAL219691263E3 Looking in the datasheet we can see it’ll store 52.5Ws of energy, or about 14.5mWh, which gives us about 7.4 minutes of time in a perfect world (because 32mAh for 1hr life with 3.7v nominal battery voltage = 118mW, 52.5Ws/0.118w = ~7.4). Counting in ESR and the fact we can’t discharge the cap below about 0.5v because the dc-dc converter needs something to work with, but it doesn’t seem totally crazy to get at least a minute out of it and change batteries in that timeframe.

 

The link does not go deep, but if I do a search for MAL219691263E3 on their page it works. BUT it is quite big 36mm x 14.5mm x 2.5mm - though not impossible to imagine in there,

[EskeRahn 5,471]

vlycop wrote:

thing i would not be able to do with the pro1 since the USB C is not aligned :( )

Sorry, I’m not sure what this means. How is the USB-C port not aligned, so that you can’t charge it with a cable in the car. I’m not challenging. This is probably showing off my ignorance and probably that I missed something somewhere. Just looking for clarification.

 

Thanks. :-)

 

Well IF we are talking a generic holder with variable width AND a fixed centred plug, then that would not work.But most generic holders requires you to insert the cable manually, and here it could or could not be a problem, depending on the the bottom support.

 

At first I too found it odd with the plug off centre, but once you tried to operate it in landscape plugged, you get the "AHA that is why!" on the placement, as the cable slips perfectly between two fingers. Another detail thought through.

[attachment file=35240]

[vlycop 38]

vlycop wrote:

thing i would not be able to do with the pro1 since the USB C is not aligned :( )

Sorry, I’m not sure what this means. How is the USB-C port not aligned, so that you can’t charge it with a cable in the car. I’m not challenging. This is probably showing off my ignorance and probably that I missed something somewhere. Just looking for clarification.

 

Thanks. :-)

 

The issue isn't really the phone, but in my car i have a fixed, non removable phone holder, with 2 support under the phone, on each side of the middle ... where most phone had there cable.

the support will block access to the phone usb c :(

[netman 1,424]

netman wrote:

I had not thought this trough and you’re right it’s pretty realistic, even say we want to use an ultracapcitor because batteries wear out fast… First options I found looked good until I realized the ESR was on the order of 50 ohms or so which would make efficiency absolutely pathetic to the point it would work for seconds at best. But with some parametric search magic some have rather spectacular specs:

https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-BC-Components/MAL219691263E3

Looking in the datasheet we can see it’ll store 52.5Ws of energy, or about 14.5mWh, which gives us about 7.4 minutes of time in a perfect world (because 32mAh for 1hr life with 3.7v nominal battery voltage = 118mW, 52.5Ws/0.118w = ~7.4). Counting in ESR and the fact we can’t discharge the cap below about 0.5v because the dc-dc converter needs something to work with, but it doesn’t seem totally crazy to get at least a minute out of it and change batteries in that timeframe.

The link does not go deep, but if I do a search for MAL219691263E3 on their page it works. BUT it is quite big 36mm x 14.5mm x 2.5mm – though not impossible to imagine in there,

 

The link is most definitely broken, don't know what went wrong there xD. That's indeed the size of the item I tryed to link though, importantly one of the flattest options I found that would be able to supply the approx 100mW for more than a few seconds, many of them being longer cylinders with a small-ish diameter but still too fat to imagine fitting in a phone. Aside probably not being impossible to stuff in a phone, there are probably better options to find with a more exhaustive search/comparison.

[EskeRahn 5,471]

The issue isn’t really the phone, but in my car i have a fixed, non removable phone holder, with 2 support under the phone, on each side of the middle … where most phone had there cable.

the support will block access to the phone usb c :(

 

Yup. the clearance between two symmetric supports would need to be about 34mm, and not all holders have that. Though usually of simple plastic, I think it will likely be quite easy to widen on one side.

[Doktor Oswaldo 906]

I dont necesarilly see why it has to make the phone thicker. Just some type of removable (slide-off?) back cover that is itself the battery (and possibly whatever goes on the other side of battery like nfc etc if there’s something that must be between battery and cover).

 

Ah who cares for NFC? But a removable battery means you need some kind of a bay with a contact else you can just throw a battery in and attach a flexible connector. Sure you could just do the same design for replaceable batteries, but it is possible to attach these flexible cable connectors wrongly, isn't it?

 

I once lost a floppy drive because I connected the IDE cable one off (did it without looking). It got smelly pretty fast. Luckily I stopped the power input before my pc was as hot as my mixtape :D

[vlycop 38]

vlycop wrote:

The issue isn’t really the phone, but in my car i have a fixed, non removable phone holder, with 2 support under the phone, on each side of the middle … where most phone had there cable.

 

the support will block access to the phone usb c :(

Yup. the clearance between two symmetric supports would need to be about 34mm, and not all holders have that. Though usually of simple plastic, I think it will likely be quite easy to widen on one side.

 

Thank's but i am NOT grinding the plastic console of my car for a phone, i leave it unplug XD

Qi charging would have been an option, but im way more into metal back :)

[Hook 3,043]

Hook wrote:

vlycop wrote:

thing i would not be able to do with the pro1 since the USB C is not aligned :( )

 

Sorry, I’m not sure what this means. How is the USB-C port not aligned, so that you can’t charge it with a cable in the car. I’m not challenging. This is probably showing off my ignorance and probably that I missed something somewhere. Just looking for clarification.

 

Thanks. :-)

The issue isn’t really the phone, but in my car i have a fixed, non removable phone holder, with 2 support under the phone, on each side of the middle … where most phone had there cable.

 

the support will block access to the phone usb c :(

 

Ahh, thanks. I see now. I don't use a fixed holder so I hadn't considered that. I have a cup holder that positions any large phone perfectly for GPS use. ;-)

[EskeRahn 5,471]

Thank’s but i am NOT grinding the plastic console of my car for a phone, i leave it unplug XD

Qi charging would have been an option, but im way more into metal back :)

 

Oh I meant we can buy cheap phone holders for next to nothing on e.g. ebay or aliexpress, and those could be modified, if the the clearance is not sufficient.

[enPfzr4v 239]

And yes, 24/7 vpn + a linux vm in the background + tasker + auto sync with my home lab … i’m not a normal user… poor phone

 

I was following your concerns and totally understanding the desire for a larger battery, this is totally not necessary. Anyone can easily use any size battery you throw at them, just like storage or ram or cpu speed, and that's what I'm seeing from this. For example, why would you ever need to run a linux vm? Why would you not run your linux instance on a machine somewhere in your virtual private network that you're connected to 24/7? Why do you need to be waking up the phone to run tasker processes so often?

 

I'd totally be in favour of a larger battery, but I think you could be happy with the battery this device has if you just act a little smarter with the power you get.

[vlycop 38]

vlycop wrote:

And yes, 24/7 vpn + a linux vm in the background + tasker + auto sync with my home lab … i’m not a normal user… poor phone

I was following your concerns and totally understanding the desire for a larger battery, this is totally not necessary. Anyone can easily use any size battery you throw at them, just like storage or ram or cpu speed, and that’s what I’m seeing from this. For example, why would you ever need to run a linux vm? Why would you not run your linux instance on a machine somewhere in your virtual private network that you’re connected to 24/7? Why do you need to be waking up the phone to run tasker processes so often?

 

I’d totally be in favour of a larger battery, but I think you could be happy with the battery this device has if you just act a little smarter with the power you get.

 

I realise that my use make no sense, but because i'm use to, and i can, i don't see why would i do othewise. I use the vpn to access home service that i wouldn't want to see facing the open web, the vm to run local client who don't have valid alternative on android, and tasker, aside from being my "on call alarm" is full of time saving automation i spend the last 9y setting up. Api call are what's using batteries.

I'm not saying that this phone is bad because of it's battery, it's very reasonable and will suffice to most people. It's just that it won't be an upgrade and i'm ok with it.