Pro1 X Qwerty Layout (Not Shifted)

[Slion 1,200]

I reckon FxTec should send all of us on this thread a free Pro1 keyboard upgrade kit when this is all over 🤣

Edited October 31, 2020 by Slion

[matf-kabouik 414]

37 minutes ago, Slion said:

@matfYou forgot Ctrls are hardwired.

Also I rather have Shift, Ctrl and Fn in the left corner as that's how it is on most keyboards these days. Except ThinkPads 🤣

Damn you're right about Ctrl, thanks! I didn't forget it was wired but just reused the wrong base layout! It's fixed in my previous post.

We have been thinking about the position of Fn, but actually what is common on laptops (and not necessarily always done) doesn't make much sense on the Pro1 with touch typing and other keybindings.

Fn here would be used for F1-12, Del, and Home/PgUp/etc. Those are rarely combined with the adjacent keys in the placement you suggest, i.e., Ctrl and Super. Ctrl+F1-12 and Super+F1-12 exist, but are infrequently used, and mostly user-configured. By contrast, having Alt next to Fn makes a lot of sense for Alt+F4, Alt+F2 and Alt+F3. Same for Ctrl+Alt+Del we discussed above.

Ctrl and Shift can still be chorded with Fn relatively easily because they are on both sides of the keyboard, whereas there is only one Alt_L, so it has to be next to Fn to be chorded with one thumb. Likewise, this way the only Alt is also allows located next to Super for other combinations frequently used at WM level.

On laptops, none of this has any significance since combinations can all be done easily with multiple fingers whether or not Fn is in between modifiers. In fact, the Fn sitting between Ctrl and Super on my laptop annoys me a lot because it always get caught in my Shift+Super and Ctrl+Super combinations in i3. 😮

Edited October 31, 2020 by matf

[Craig 1,435]

The following is the most functional layout, but not quite sure I'm convinced it's my favorite.

Pro: 64 Keys (No wasted dupes)
Pro: Dedicated Del Key
Pro: Convenient AltGr+Shift (Capitol National Letters)
 

This is the next best thing.  Don't think there are better options than the above,  but this alternative if one really really really wants two left control keys and/or left control to be positioned bottom left.

Pro: Convenient Ctrl+Shift one thumb combo
Pro: Second Left Control Key

Why do I think I like the second one better than the first, even tho the first is more functional?  Its not because I need a second copy of left control on the right, that is not important to me, certainly not as useful as dedicated del, or altgr on the right.      I just dont like having to put AltGr in bottom left, but thats the only way to accomplish the first one due to the hardwired keys - whatever is bottom left is also just right of the space bar.
 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Craig

[brunoais 317]

I do a lot of

1. Ctrl + Del
2. Ctrl + ArrowKey
3. Ctrl + Shift + ArrowKey
4. Ctrl + Backspace
5. Ctrl + Delete,
6. PgUp
7. PgDown
8. Home
9. End

Please remind me: Are all of those keys handled in software or are some of them handled in firmware?

[EskeRahn 5,350]

Also remember Ctrl+F5 in browsers...

[EskeRahn 5,350]

there is a Pro extra on the first layout by Craig above (thinkpad-style) that some stuff distinguishes between right and left ctrl, but as standard only has one Fn, AltGr and sym, no distinction is needed on the two. But obviously it makes shift+ctrl harder.

[matf-kabouik 414]

I'm convinced those are big regressions @Craig. No Ctrl on the right is a shock. How can you guys not need the right Ctrl key? I use Ctrl+C Ctrl+A Ctrl+V Ctrl+X Ctrl+D Ctrl+F Ctrl+S Ctrl+W Ctrl+Q Ctrl+Z Ctrl+R (Ctrl+Shift+R conveniently replaces Ctrl+F5 in browsers @EskeRahn) every single day on my Pro¹. Those are among the most frequently used combinations in daily use (not just nerd use) and all corresponding alpha keys are on the left so we need the right Ctrl key. 

Easy Shift+AltGr, however, is not a argument strong enough to justify the trade-offs that it implies. I am an us-intl user and I use the extra symbols several times in each average sentence in my native language. Yet I don't miss an easy Shift+AltGr on the current layout. There's usually only one upper case symbol per sentence, and it's a basic alpha symbol in the vast majority of sentences. Plus, when upper case is needed, there is dead keys and Caps lock to type them with equal convenience. And now Scandic and Azerty layouts strongly reduce the necessity of an easy Shift+AltGr for international users. Losing Ctrl+Shift (plus making the location of those two major modifiers less conventional) is a huge loss.

For these reasons, my opinion is set that the best so far are the following (ignoring label color hues, just key locations):

A. 

Please don't get fooled by the quality of the PNG: the labels are equally legible, I just used the editor's builtin PNG feature and it's not good.

B. 

I am not sure yet if I prefer the layout B where you moved the left modifiers. It's not clear to me if the ability to Alt+Fn, Alt+Ctrl and Super+Fn outweighs the ability to easily Super+Alt, but it's an interesting alternative and I am still hesitating. I would see all the others layouts as regressions even compared to the vanilla Pro¹x layout.

[EskeRahn 5,350]

Just a thought more, We could move the whole arrow block one key to the left, this will allow for a modifier close to Shift on the right.... (obviously this will push the "/" key right of the Up-Key)

[matf-kabouik 414]

I find it awkward to have /? out of the way, separated by keys that are supposed to be in a different block on regular keyboards. The reordered modifiers on the left does not really work for me, we lose many of the easier combinations we were talking about in previous posts. However I find it interesting that the new layouts we now come up with imply huge losses; that was not the case a few days ago and it might show that we finally reached a good level of optimization.

[brunoais 317]

I prefer a tall Enter key than wide Enter key. Then the key between Enter and Backspace would go where Enter is shortened. However, that's not how the PRO¹ is designed but I wanted to get that out of my system.

Given the options, A is the closest to how I use the keyboard and how I need to use the keyboard.

I also like that we turn  the "dedicated" symbol key into another modified (Fn is written on the keyboard but officially, it can be the Hyper key! Oh wait... There's no hyper key in android... Oh well...)

Ok so...

1. Ctrl -> KEYCODE_CTRL_LEFT
2. Shift -> KEYCODE_SHIFT_LEFT
3. Alt -> KEYCODE_ALT_LEFT
4. AltGr -> KEYCODE_META_LEFT
5. FX -> KEYCODE_SEARCH
6. Fn -> KEYCODE_FUNCTION ?

Can some one please confirm if these are correct for me?

[matf-kabouik 414]

Just now, brunoais said:

I prefer a tall Enter key than wide Enter key. Then the key between Enter and Backspace would go where Enter is shortened. However, that's not how the PRO¹ is designed but I wanted to get that out of my system.

Given the options, A is the closest to how I use the keyboard and how I need to use the keyboard.

I also like that we turn  the "dedicated" symbol key into another modified (Fn is written on the keyboard but officially, it can be the Hyper key! Oh wait... There's no hyper key in android... Oh well...)

Ok so...

1. Ctrl -> KEYCODE_CTRL_LEFT
2. Shift -> KEYCODE_SHIFT_LEFT
3. Alt -> KEYCODE_ALT_LEFT
4. AltGr -> KEYCODE_META_LEFT
5. FX -> KEYCODE_SEARCH
6. Fn -> KEYCODE_FUNCTION ?

Can some one please confirm if these are correct for me?

Changing the shape of the Return key implies hardware changes. @Craig suggested we shouldn't go that far if we want F(x)tec to consider our suggestions. He's probably right. In addition, a tall Return would mimic an ISO keyboard, whereas the rest of the layout is closer to ANSI.

Edited October 31, 2020 by matf

[brunoais 317]

Btw, As a reminder I made a suggestion in the past for a non-shifted QWERTY keyboard more tailored to Latin-originated languages (PT-*, ES-*, FR (Non-ASERTY), IT-*, EL-*, etc...)

It may be meaningful to take it into account here.

 

  

9 minutes ago, matf said:

Changing the shape of the Return key implies hardware changes. @Craig suggested we shouldn't go that far if we want F(x)tec to consider our suggestions. He's probably right. In addition, a tall Return would mimic an ISO keyboard, whereas the rest of the layout is closer to ANSI.

 

I do find it weird that they went ANSI standard, specially given that they are UK-based. Pretty much only USA uses ANSI (as it is an USA standard). Most of the world uses ISO standard. However, it is how it is 🤷. I'll be living with it OK, after some mispressings.
I do agree it's not a good idea to go that path.
I guess F(x)tec went this format because they intended to use a dedicated del key. However, in such keyboard, with use, different priorities arise, specially with the needs of dead keys.

However, I believe I will be able to live find with switching back and forth in keyboard layout prints.

Edited October 31, 2020 by brunoais
matf's answer

[EskeRahn 5,350]

15 minutes ago, matf said:

I find it awkward to have /? out of the way, separated by keys that are supposed to be in a different block on regular keyboards. The reordered modifiers on the left does not really work for me, we lose many of the easier combinations we were talking about in previous posts. However I find it interesting that the new layouts we now come up with imply huge losses; that was not the case a few days ago and it might show that we finally reached a good level of optimization.

The whole idea was to have both Shift+Altgr and Shift+Ctrl as one-thumb presses. The price of a slightly moved slash seems low to me.

Also remember than in combinations like Ctrl+Alt to my knowledge Ctrl+AltGr is doing the same, so that would still be available as one thumb.

[brunoais 317]

7 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

Also remember than in combinations like Ctrl+Alt to my knowledge Ctrl+AltGr is doing the same, so that would still be available as one thumb.

Depends on how the keycodes are configured. In my PC, CTRL+AltGr doesn't default to CTRL+Alt when nothing is configured for it (running linux 5.4). However, that may be configurable. I will need to check

[matf-kabouik 414]

I think one of the reasons for going ANSI is also because while ISO is the norm in more countries, it comes in a huge variety of different flavors. There's no easy way to make something that works internationally with ISO without going into too many custom adjustments that may create new problems (like those we're trying to fix).

@EskeRahn I understand the goal of this layout but to me the cost of moving arrows is high and the sorting of the left modifiers comes with significant drawbacks while drifting away from something more standard we know can be achieved. It is just my opinion, nothing more.

Edited October 31, 2020 by matf

[brunoais 317]

1 hour ago, EskeRahn said:

Just a thought more, We could move the whole arrow block one key to the left, this will allow for a modifier close to Shift on the right.... (obviously this will push the "/" key right of the Up-Key)

Can't do CTRL+Shift+Arrow on that one... So, not my "walk in the part"

[EskeRahn 5,350]

3 hours ago, brunoais said:

Can't do CTRL+Shift+Arrow on that one... So, not my "walk in the part"

Yeah, that would require to let go the left hand while using say left index finger for the arrows. I use the combo for marking too, but not so often that I would find a changed grib problematic.

[Craig 1,435]

I was ok with moving the arrows before and played witht hat, doesnt matter if quesiton mark is to the right.  I suggested it the previous time matf expressed concern about the shift+ctrl combination (if we used existing ctrl key placement for right_alt).    There seems to be tradeoffs.   But it does seperate left and right control.  I think yer onto something there.  It's the most functional (64-keys, separate  controls), and easy Ctrl+Shift (on right).

#1. Right & Left Control

#2. Dedicated Delete

#3. Pretty (Two Left Controls)

So.  Now in my opinion there are three competing good layout ideas.  All have merits and all fix the problem, its just minor difference with Del and Ctrl.

Then there are three possibilities for labeling Right_Alt key [Sym, AltGr, or Yellow Alt].  All have merits and doesn't really matter to me.   Fxtec used Sym so that's what I'm using in examples.

And of course two possibilities for labeling Function key, Fn or Slant Arrow.. Both fine and doesn't really matter.  Fxtec used slant arrow so that's what I'm using in examples.

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Craig

[EskeRahn 5,350]

If we do not want to 'lock' specific functions to the keys @Craig labeled as Sym and ⬈ above we could have some 'neutral' geometric shapes (e.g. arrow, circle, square...) in different colours or shapes, and then let the OS+layout combination define the actual functions as most suitable. E.g. AltGr or Sym might be vital in some combinations, but a complete waste of key(s) in others.

I have previously encountered keyboards with coloured squares.

[EskeRahn 5,350]

...E.g. see this IBM 3179 terminal keyboard with coloured and grey keys without print

(BTW note the distinction between Carriage Return end Enter)

[netman 1,424]

11 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

...E.g. see this IBM 3179 terminal keyboard with coloured and grey keys without print

[heavy breathing]

[EskeRahn 5,350]

34 minutes ago, netman said:

[heavy breathing]

A bit more relevant:

 

[matf-kabouik 414]

19 hours ago, Craig said:

I was ok with moving the arrows before and played witht hat, doesnt matter if quesiton mark is to the right.  I suggested it the previous time matf expressed concern about the shift+ctrl combination (if we used existing ctrl key placement for right_alt).    There seems to be tradeoffs.   But it does seperate left and right control.  I think yer onto something there.  It's the most functional (64-keys, separate  controls), and easy Ctrl+Shift (on right).

#1. Right & Left Control

#2. Dedicated Delete

#3. Pretty (Two Left Controls)

So.  Now in my opinion there are three competing good layout ideas.  All have merits and all fix the problem, its just minor difference with Del and Ctrl.

Then there are three possibilities for labeling Right_Alt key [Sym, AltGr, or Yellow Alt].  All have merits and doesn't really matter to me.   Fxtec used Sym so that's what I'm using in examples.

And of course two possibilities for labeling Function key, Fn or Slant Arrow.. Both fine and doesn't really matter.  Fxtec used slant arrow so that's what I'm using in examples.

 

I am sorry for being the annoying guy with my strong feelings here, but in my opinion any layout (1) without a right Ctrl key, (2) without a bottom left Ctrl, or (3) with the arrows block splitting the usual punctuation symbols are absolute no-go.

(1) No one answered my question about how are supposed to be used the Ctrl+Alpha combinations without a right Ctrl when most those combinations imply the whole left-hand alpha block (QWERTASDFGZXCVB), but I believe it is a huge thing to consider. Those keys serve in text editing, file management, tab management, window management, terminal work, and probably other areas. I mean, they are probably the most common and widespread commands across all softwares and OSes, and we can't do them without right Ctrl.

(2) and (3) We have put sweat into getting closer to real keyboard standards, even sacrificing Del to put \| where it belongs and, together, we managed to reach a fully normal alphanumeric and punctuation block (except for right Shift but that's an okay trade-off), which was quite an achievement on a 64-key keyboard. I cannot understand how moving arrows inside this block, hence splitting it and moving Ctrl and ?/ to an isolated block with Shift, or moving the bottom left Ctrl, could even be remotely acceptable. I think those changes are worse than having \| in an exotic location, and we would do exactly what we were trying to fix: custom changes that F(x)tec did in the past or that laptop manufacturers do despite all the hate and functionality issues they create. Clearly, if Liangchen did accept any of the layouts moving left Ctrl, the arrow block, or removing right Ctrl, I would be disappointed enough to consider cancelling my pledge for the Pro1x because I would consider it a significant regression compared to the already suboptimal layout they are offering in the campaign. Now this is just my opinion and it may or may not be deemed relevant by the majority, I'm just taking part in the discussion and I fully understand that having strong feelings doesn't mean my view weighs more. However I've seen other reactions on Discord about the lack of right Ctrl or the moving of the bottom left Ctrl, so I probably am not alone.

I think any layout doing those trade-offs on Ctrl and arrows lose a lot of functionality just to maximize technicality for more modifiers. I believe functionality and genericity are far more important.

The only viable candidates (for me, again) with all OSes, use cases and languages in mind are the A and B posted above. This of course looks like I just push the ones I already posted, but B actually comes from Craig and is the same as his "3. Pretty", just with different labels. I don't think Pretty does it justice though, and it won't sell it well to F(x)tec who values functionality. I think it's the best allrounder with a good balance between keyboard standards and thumb-typing functionality across different OSes. I am not sure between that one (A or "Pretty": Ctrl, AltGr, Fx, Alt, Fn) and its variation (B: Ctrl, Alt, Fn, Fx, AltGr) later suggested by Craig. My use case with tiling window managers makes Super+Alt more important than Fn+Alt, so I tend to prefer A/Pretty, but it's hard to tell if it's objective or just biased by my use case (which wouldn't be a good argument). Another thing to consider is consistency: it is a good idea to have the same easy key combinations on both sides of the keyboard. A can do Ctrl+AltGr both on left and right, which means keybindings using this combination can be used with all alpha keys. For non-us-intl users who won't have anything on third level of their keys, this could be an important improvement (AltGr can be interpreted as normal Alt while Alt can be interpreted as a different modifier). Only the A keyboard allows that. With a tiling WM for instance where many keybindings are configured, it's important that the same patterns can be used with both hands to maximize the number of shortcuts while keeping them logical. Tiling WMs on the Pro¹ could soon be more than just the nerdy thing they currently are with just SFOS+LXC, because Mobian/Arch/pmOS are progressing and attracting more users, and even Phosh can make use of more consistent keybindings with both thumbs.

Regarding labels:

- I suggest using the same blue as the one used on your space bar: #3B76A4. It would look more consistent and also is closer to the Pro1x casing, it may maximize the chances that F(x)tec picks up the idea.

- Wasn't there a consensus that Sym is relevant only for Android and that AltGr is more conventional and OS-agnostic?

- Same with blue slant arrow. It's fine by me and it may please F(x)tec since they used slant arrows before, but isn't Fn just more logical and straightforward? I had tried ◯ ⛶ ◌ ⬚ on the A and B layouts I posted above, but didn't see any significant improvement compared to ↗, while Fn looked just like what it does: function keys. On the original F(x)tec layout, I guess ↗ makes sense because it's an alternate shift that can produce symbols; not on our proposal here, only functions.

Finally, a couple final words on Del: I'm sold to it because it allows achieving superior layouts in all regards. However, this will be a very significant change compared to Scandic, Azerty and Qwertz layouts and it is hard to tell if F(x)tec will be prepared to sell layouts that have not the same basic principles. We should both come up with an alternate idea without sacrificing Del (putting back \| to the bottom I guess), and propose equivalents for the other layouts offered by F(x)tec. I'm sure they will want consistency across all layouts they ship, not just a superior yet weird Qwerty that doesn't fit in the rest of their offering.

Edited November 1, 2020 by matf

[Craig 1,435]

Yeah agreed on all that @matf.  I updated OP yesterday to reflect all that before you even posted, and had removed reference to other possibilities to make  the argument cleared and less confusing to focus on the one most accepted idea.  I have a feeling won't change it again today, I'm pretty sure all things have been considered.  I also did a poll on discord yesterday and not a single vote for either of the other two layouts.  Probably boring to re-read again, but if you wanna check the first post and make sure you agree with the way I've re-summarized everything there, it would be appreciated. 

I personally prefer labeled keys over unlabeled.  As mentioned in first post and several times in this thread, I also think AltGr & Fn are the best labels for those keys.  I wouldn't like boxes or diamonds or anything cuz they're just as nonstandard and ambiguous as slant arrow imo.  But thats not the important part, although I do hope they do that too.  The important part is slash.  And I did address this in OP too.

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Craig

[Slion 1,200]

On 10/29/2020 at 11:05 AM, EskeRahn said:

I very much like this idea!

In the Danish for shifted QwertY FinQwerty layout I suggested something similar. But @Anssi Hannula explained that it was not technically possible and Del ended up being moved to another key(!).
But it might be possible to do the  move if done somewhat deeper. LineageOS uses some tricks here for the mappings that might be adapted for stock too?

I just tested Fn+Backspace to do Del on Fx Qwerty and that works just fine. It should work the same with any other modifier. I see no reason why this should not be doable on the other operating systems either.
That means we should really push to have FxTec remove the dedicated Del key.

Note: confusingly in the Android API Backspace is actually called DEL and Del is called FORWARD_DEL.