Scandinavian Layout Feedback Wanted

[Erik 1,487]

Hi everyone,

 

As you might be aware we are planning to introduce a Scandinavian layout for use in Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark. Please be aware that we don't currently have information on when the Scandinavian layout is coming. We know that it will take at least 3 months after the first Pro1 device ships for us to enter talks with the factory on a third variation - Scandinavian, in addition to QWERTY and QWERTZ.

 

Meanwhile, we'd like to get your feedback and suggestions to help complete the layout before we can look into manufacturing it at a later point in time. Based on existing opinions and suggestions by @raphaelcno, we have put together the following layout: (full size at https://ibb.co/PCv45n4 )

 

 

Please let us know what you think, and what you'd change - either in text or graphically. If you wish to change something, please note the rules - (1) max. 2 characters per key. (2) The yellow characters can be input by combining them with the yellow arrow key. These 2 settings cannot be changed.

 

We look forward to hearing your opinion below.

 

Erik & Team

[EskeRahn 5,471]

You need the image in a better resolution, it is almost impossible to see the prints.

But thumbs up for the initiative

See the other threads on layouts also

[Erik 1,487]

https://ibb.co/PCv45n4

 

I think it's a limitation of the forum. Open the full resolution image at https://ibb.co/PCv45n4

 

 

[EskeRahn 5,471]

But I think you got the whole idea wrong. It is NOT to be used to enter Swedish/Danish/Norwegian simultaneously so we do NOT want the 'other' sets of ÆØ, ØÆ, ÄÖ accessibile via the yellow arrow.

 

We want to select the language in the menu, and have the letters active as directly accessible letters like A-Z with no modifiers, so yellow arrow and the two keys could be used for other purposes.

[Erik 1,487]

But I think you got the whole idea wrong. It is NOT to be used to enter Swedish/Danish/Norwegian simultaneously so we do NOT want the ‘other’ sets of ÆØ, ØÆ, ÄÖ accessibile via the yellow arrow.

 

We want to select the language in the menu, and have the letters active as directly accessible letters like A-Z with no modifiers, so yellow arrow and the two keys could be used for other purposes.

 

That is actually something we have in mind, but we haven't yet decided how to implement it. We plan to have Swedish and Finnish as one layout, and Norwegian/Danish as another in software, but physically the layout would look the same - it would just act differently depending on which language you choose. This way you won't have to combine them with the arrow to get Ø and Æ. Ideally, I'd push for the Ø and Æ in Norwegian/Danish to be a different colour so it's more clear they're for use in Norway and Denmark only. For this to work, however, we'll need to know what the cost implication will be for the existing machinery to add a different colour. As you might know, it's not as simple as printing or lasering it, the letters that light up are filled with different material than the surrounding "black" which the key is formed of.

 

Or we could go with @raphaelcno 's idea, which is adding the Ø and Æ letters right on the Ö and Ä keys. We are still accepting and reviewing opinions between the two options.

[ddark-il 100]

I think you should pin this post

[EskeRahn 5,471]

EskeRahn wrote:

https://ibb.co/PCv45n4

I think it’s a limitation of the forum. Open the full resolution image at https://ibb.co/PCv45n4

 

When only two colours are available I would suggest a layout that can be used in Sweden and Norway.

Note that by sound and name Ä=Æ and Ö=Ø it is just the way it is written that is different.

So this 'bastard' print I guess would be understandable by all parties

[attachment file=37087]

 

And then we as Danes has to accept EITHER to use Norwegian logical layout (ÆØ swapped) OR to use the correct Danish layout accepting the print to be swapped.

 

 

[Zimeon 11]

Layout looks good, as long as Danish/Norwegian keys are selectable via software. They don't have to light up or anything imho. Only wish it would have been a preorder option :) Hope to switch the layout later on myself.

 

Personally i would switch $ and € signs but that's it.

[Erik 1,487]

Erik-FX wrote:

EskeRahn wrote:

https://ibb.co/PCv45n4

 

I think it’s a limitation of the forum. Open the full resolution image at https://ibb.co/PCv45n4

When only two colours are available I would suggest a layout that can be used in Sweden and Norway.

 

Note that by sound and name Ä=Æ and Ö=Ø it is just the way it is written that is different.

 

So this ‘bastard’ print I guess would be understandable by all parties

 

 

And then we as Danes has to accept EITHER to use Norwegian logical layout (ÆØ swapped) OR to use the correct Danish layout accepting the print to be swapped.

 

That's a very interesting idea, Eske. Thanks!

[EskeRahn 5,471]

Have a look here as well.... http://android.onse.fi/finqwerty/pro1.html

[EskeRahn 5,471]

That’s a very interesting idea, Eske. Thanks!

 

A slight variant of an idea I posted half a year ago, this is not a new discussion in here... https://www.fxtec.com/forums/topic/alternative-layouts/page/9/#post-14622

 

[Helppu 0]

Both of the options are acceptable regarding the layout of the keyboard.

I'm just happy that you guys are doing the scandic version.

I have to second what Zimeon wrote, it would probably be more natural for $ sign to be on the number 4 and the euro sign on the E.

Good luck with the shipping and I hope I can see Pro1 hitting the stores in Finland ASAP.

 

-Helppu

[bluetooth 0]

Hi,

 

thank you for taking the initiative on the scandic variant and thank you for asking for comments.

The scandic letters themselves look fine. Ö and Ø prints could be stacked (on the same key, of course) and similarly Ä and Æ, all with the same, white color.

 

However, I would have a question concerning the placement of some special characters and the logic they can be retrieved. Frankly, I am a bit puzzled why Shift key is not used as a modifier to get special characters. I see this as a missed opportunity, especially when the Pro1 keyboard does have enough keys to provide an almost PC-like key layout.

 

@Erik: you mentioned that only two special characters per physical key are allowed. Where does this restriction originate from? After all, you do support three characters per key in letter keys: e.g., the key 'P' provides the following three characters: p (when typing P alone), P (Shift+P), } (Fn+P).

 

Usually, two different characters are assigned to any of the number keys: e.g., the '2' key would provide: 2 (2), " (Shift+2), @ (Fn+2).

 

Is this not possible in the Pro1?

[EskeRahn 5,471]

Hi,

 

thank you for taking the initiative on the scandic variant and thank you for asking for comments.

 

The scandic letters themselves look fine. Ö and Ø prints could be stacked (on the same key, of course) and similarly Ä and Æ, all with the same, white color.

 

However, I would have a question concerning the placement of some special characters and the logic they can be retrieved. Frankly, I am a bit puzzled why Shift key is not used as a modifier to get special characters. I see this as a missed opportunity, especially when the Pro1 keyboard does have enough keys to provide an almost PC-like key layout.

 

@erik: you mentioned that only two special characters per physical key are allowed. Where does this restriction originate from? After all, you do support three characters per key in letter keys: e.g., the key ‘P’ provides the following three characters: p (when typing P alone), P (Shift+P), } (Fn+P).

 

Usually, two different characters are assigned to any of the number keys: e.g., the ‘2’ key would provide: 2 (2), “ (Shift+2), @ (Fn+2).

 

Is this not possible in the Pro1?

 

I'm pretty sure the limit of two is an aesthetic one. The keys can return 'any' number of things combined with various modifiers. It works just fine currently with FinQwerty http://android.onse.fi/finqwerty/pro1.html

 

When I look VERY closely at the keys it COULD look like the keys basically are white with black covering all but the 'print', and the green of caps, and yellow on others is accomplished by a film above the white, so this might make my idea of 'bastard' print hard to do, but the same could be done in pure white, with various print thickness as my original idea back in May.

[Joakim 32]

I think for the special characters (@,", etc) are quite alright with their placements. It does not matter much, since the direction of your hand movement will be similar anyway. Only thing that might make it harder at start, is that you must remember to use different modifier than what you are used to with a normal keyboard.

 

Eske's idea of stacked Ä + Æ and Ö + Ø seem fine to me.

 

As a programmer, looking at the keyboard with spreaded brackets all over the keyboard (I also hate that on normal Windows keyboard. OSX does it really well, when all the brackets are under 8 and 9, accessible with different modifiers), pains my soul, but does not really matter in the end ;)

 

Would love to order the keyboard atleast for my phone (since disassembling it didn't seem impossible). I doubt I will be ordering a second one. For now atleast.

[EskeRahn 5,471]

I think for the special characters (@,”, etc) are quite alright with their placements. It does not matter much, since the direction of your hand movement will be similar anyway. Only thing that might make it harder at start, is that you must remember to use different modifier than what you are used to with a normal keyboard.

 

Eske’s idea of stacked Ä + Æ and Ö + Ø seem fine to me.

 

As a programmer, looking at the keyboard with spreaded brackets all over the keyboard (I also hate that on normal Windows keyboard. OSX does it really well, when all the brackets are under 8 and 9, accessible with different modifiers), pains my soul, but does not really matter in the end ;)

 

Would love to order the keyboard atleast for my phone (since disassembling it didn’t seem impossible). I doubt I will be ordering a second one. For now atleast.

 

It is fairly easy to remap what we get pressing various combinations just like we want (well within reasonable limits). The important thing is to get the print right, as this is unlikely to be modified once set into production.

 

Currently with FinQwerty he has made the clever solution of having Shift+Key give what you EXPECT as standard, but have Fn+Key give what is printed. Of course we want the print to be as close to the standard as possible, but when it covers multiple languages this is not always possible.

e.g when I on current shifted QWERTY set to Danish press Fn+9 it gives "(" as is printed, and is expected of a US keyboard. But Shift+9 gives ")" as expected in Danish.

[FlyingAntero 871]

That is actually something we have in mind, but we haven’t yet decided how to implement it. We plan to have Swedish and Finnish as one layout, and Norwegian/Danish as another in software, but physically the layout would look the same – it would just act differently depending on which language you choose. This way you won’t have to combine them with the arrow to get Ø and Æ.

I like this idea! Scandic keyboards are usually implemented this way so it would be natural for us. In my keyboard (PC), Ö+Ø and Ä+Æ are printed side to side but combining them to a one character would be interesting idea. I haven't seen that before anywhere but not bad at all.

 

Only suggestion for layout that I have would be flipping $ and €. $ is usually with 4 button and € with E button. And if you are going to combine Ö+Ø and Ä+Æ then * and ' could be moved from K and L buttons to Ö and Ä.

My proposal:

Example of Scandic keyboard (PC)

https://imgur.com/a/sV83X9H

[raphaelcno 21]

I have to second what Zimeon wrote, it would probably be more natural for $ sign to be on the number 4 and the euro sign on the E.

-Helppu

Yes, this solution would be similar to the desktop keyboard.

[raphaelcno 21]

My preferred solution is 1, then 2, then 3:

 

[attachment file=2019-09-26 - Fxtec - Scandinavian keyboard layout.png]

 

[EskeRahn 5,471]

My preferred solution is 1, then 2, then 3:

 

<span class="image-overlay overlay-type-image" style="left: -5px; top: 0px; overflow: hidden; display: block; height: 716px; width: 996px;"><span class="image-overlay-inside"></span></span>

 

On the μ (03BC) or µ (00B5) I would say that though handy for us nerds, it is hardly worth a print. That is not to say that the functionality should not be there pressing the combination.

 

And that goes for all 1,2,3

By 1 you break the 'rule' Erik put up, so I think you should add to the list one with the three to the left and bottom in white, and the upper right the symbols in yellow. I would say that is better than your one (But of course biased as a Dane) Something like this quick copy and paste:

[attachment file=37262]

YES I know these would be rather cramped and thus less than the other letters, But I think MOST non-nerds would prefer that

 

 

 

[raphaelcno 21]

On the μ (03BC) or µ (00B5) I would say that though handy for us nerds, it is hardly worth a print.

I agree, the µ is not the most important character, but I was just thinking that it is a standard character on the desktop keyboard, and it already exists on the German QWERTZ Pro1, so it will not be necessary to create this particular key just for the Scandinavian layout.

 

[attachment file=2019-09-26 - Fxtec - Scandinavian keyboard layout - M µ.jpg]

 

[raphaelcno 21]

By 1 you break the ‘rule’ Erik put up

Yes, I understand, but I think what Erik means by his rule is that you can only have two "active" characters per key, one white and one yellow character.

Only one character (for instance Ö or Ø) will be active at a time, depending on the language you choose.

Having three white characters and one yellow character on the same key seems more difficult due to available space.

[_DW_ 628]

I'd be surprised if android doesn't support 3 keys per key as this is standard on keyboards already.

{key}

SHIFT+{key}

ALT GR + {key}

 

But I think it may be a manufacturing issue to display 3 keys due to the size not an OS thing.

 

[EskeRahn 5,471]

I’d be surprised if android doesn’t support 3 keys per key as this is standard on keyboards already.

 

{key}

 

SHIFT+{key}

 

ALT GR + {key}

 

But I think it may be a manufacturing issue to display 3 keys due to the size not an OS thing.

 

I think it is mainly a design issue, as it could easily look a mess with a lot of print on the keys, and also the print could become so small so not everyone can read it. Already it is not easy to see the difference between "," and "." and between ";" and ":"

[raphaelcno 21]

I think it is mainly a design issue, as it could easily look a mess with a lot of print on the keys, and also the print could become so small so not everyone can read it.

Yes, there is too little space to have four characters with the existing size.

But you can keep the existing size if you have two white characters and one yellow character:

 

[attachment file=2019-09-27 - Fxtec - Pro1 Scandinavian keyboard layout ÖØ ÄÆ.jpg]

 

One question to Erik from F(x)tec: Is it easier to produce keys with standard characters ÖØ and ÄÆ or with combined characters?

 

[attachment file=2019-09-27 - Fxtec - Pro1 Scandinavian keyboard layout Combined ÖØ ÄÆ.png]