keyboard AZERTY layout proposal

[Slion 1,201]

New AZERTY layout proposal - that's the one we want:

Yellow prints on common letter keys are accessed using Alt Gr, other yellow prints are accessed using Shifts. 

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/9aa155b55485e01a823b8ccd04d00fe7

Original AZERTY layout proposal - we don't want this one anymore:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/84c7007c45445b002871e157fdab8cb4

Here is the corresponding QWERTY US layout proposal:

 

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com#/gists/c8cd79243e2f4470b949991786952262

Edited September 18, 2021 by Slion

[phix 14]

It seems that a "Scandinavian Qwerty" layout is on the way. We can espect that other layouts will come soon after the official launch. But again, a "QwertY-US International" layout would have been a better option than QwertZ for a first product launch as it covers in a unique layout all common languages (based on latin characters) with all the accents/characters available only on some languages).

 

I still prefer the "QwertY-FR" variant as described on http://marin.jb.free.fr/qwerty-fr/ because it just adds the missing french characters (and some others) on a standard Qwerty-US layout. (The daily use is very easy on a standard keyboard, try it!). So I think that the software part may be easy to implement on the regular "Pro1 Qwerty" as it not requires any move or addition of key.

 

Other options for french are :

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN/CSA_Z243.200-92

https://qwerty-lafayette.org/

http://bepo.fr/

(and, of course, AZERTY)

[Slion 1,201]

Is there any hope of seeing an azerty layout soon?

[silversolver 849]

9 hours ago, Slion said:

Is there any hope of seeing an azerty layout soon?

That's a matter of definition. if the letters on the keys have to match what they type, that could be awhile, if ever. In the meantime, check out the fine work of @Anssi Hannula on FinQwerty. It makes almost anything possible. :)

[Slion 1,201]

@Erik @Waxberry

I've updated the first post on that thread with my proposed AZERTY layout.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

1 hour ago, Slion said:

@Erik @Waxberry

I've updated the first post on that thread with my proposed AZERTY layout.

Remember that the two shifts and two ctrl pairs are one key each logically, they are wired. So you can not do the suggested swap on the right side of space

[Slion 1,201]

45 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

Remember that the two shifts and two ctrl pairs are one key each logically, they are wired. So you can not do the suggested swap on the right side of space

Thanks for the reminder. Too bad but not such a big deal TBH. So right Ctrl is likely to stay next to the space bar unless FxTec decides to fix the wiring. That's not a deal breaker 🙂 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Slion

[Slion 1,201]

Proposal updated again based in developments from:

 

[matf-kabouik 414]

Hey @Slion, how about swapping the left AltGr with Fn? This would make it closer to the current layout and hence maybe increase chances of having it approved. That's one of the reasons which contributed to making this choice for the qwerty proposal and it would be consistent. Both AltGr are still independent so one could configure Alt_L on the left AltGr if they don't need two Alt_R, and that would make easy Ctrl+Alt combinations on both sides. Also, Fn+Alt would be easier by default, which could be useful for Alt+F1-12. Ctrl+F1-12 would become a tad more difficult, however.

Is it necessary to have Shift and shifted symbols on digits in yellow for color hints despite it being the convention? Without that you could have Fn+key functions in yellow instead.

[Slion 1,201]

 

4 hours ago, matf said:

how about swapping the left AltGr with Fn?

I rather have it like that as it matches common keyboards layout. However I don't really mind either way.

4 hours ago, matf said:

This would make it closer to the current layout

However in the current implementation both yellow arrow keys have the same scan code on stock even though they apparently have different wiring. That prevents us to map them to different functions in custom layouts. I would love to see this fixed. If they go for my suggested layout they will have to fix it in the driver. If they keep both those as Alt Gr as they were they won't have to fix it and chances are custom layout will be limited again 🙂

4 hours ago, matf said:

Both AltGr are still independent

They are not ATM on stock, see above.

4 hours ago, matf said:

Also, Fn+Alt would be easier by default

Not such a big deal.

4 hours ago, matf said:

Is it necessary to have Shift and shifted symbols on digits in yellow for color hints despite it being the convention? Without that you could have Fn+key functions in yellow instead.

I would be fine having shift layer in white, I don't mind TBH I would leave such details involving the fabrication process to FxTec. I may spend the time to suggest Fn and Alt Gr layers at some point but I don't expect FxTec to pick them up in print. 

[Slion 1,201]

Actually I think Pro1-X layout should use the new AZERTY layout. It's vastly superior to the legacy AZERTY and will work much better on Pro1-X keyboard where we can only print two characters per key. I'll update my proposal accordingly.

[Slion 1,201]

Converted one of my keyboards to that new AZERTY layout, three to go. It is so much better for typing French and foreign European languages. Since I've been living in Germany for over 16 years I do love the fact the the ß is on the keyboard. What's also really cool is easy access to Greek letters. Makes it a lot easier when writing math and science papers. αβδΔΓ love it… Easy access to ellipsis characters is also awesome. 😁

[Slion 1,201]

Updated new AZERTY layout proposal so that we have both minus and plus key directly accessible as those are often used as shortcuts. The missing star key primary character is now accessible using shit+plus.  

[EskeRahn 5,460]

3 hours ago, Slion said:

Updated new AZERTY layout proposal so that we have both minus and plus key directly accessible as those are often used as shortcuts. The missing star key primary character is now accessible using shit+plus.  

Note that (as mentioned earlier) there aren't that many yellow 'labels' mounted currently, so this layout would require more than 'just' a different top black layer print.

(It is not conflicting though, but would require a change with more yellow 'labels'. that would just be hidden under the black for existing layouts.)

[Slion 1,201]

23 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

Note that (as mentioned earlier) there aren't that many yellow 'labels' mounted currently, so this layout would require more than 'just' a different top black layer print.

(It is not conflicting though, but would require a change with more yellow 'labels'. that would just be hidden under the black for existing layouts.)

I don't understand. Are you saying they can't print so many yellow labels? To be honnest I don't think it matters much if they are yellow or white. Though it would be better if the secondary function of keys was printed in yellow but that's not a show stopper IMO.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

1 hour ago, Slion said:

I don't understand. Are you saying they can't print so many yellow labels? To be honnest I don't think it matters much if they are yellow or white. Though it would be better if the secondary function of keys was printed in yellow but that's not a show stopper IMO.

If you look carefully at the keys with secondary print in yellow (and green), with strong light falling in the exact right angle you will see a square 'bulging' up. So I concluded the keys consists of

• a transparent base
• a layer of white paint
• on some keys a coloured square field (painted or a sticker?)
• a black layer where the missing paint generates the symbols,
• (there might be a transparent protective layer on top)

The US shifted QWERTY clearly uses the same base as the German QWEERTZ as the areas that bulges are the same, no matter if it is black on qwertY if the same position got a symbol on qwertZ.

SO they can't just take the existing base and print your suggestion in black, that would leave some of your secondary symbol white, and others yellow.
They would need to modify the base with more yellow squares. Of course that is possible, if they have not already ordered (and perhaps even stocked) the bases without the final black layer. If they are not produced yet, it would obviously be a minute change that would hardly be visible at the bottom line.

[Slion 1,201]

This is a rant about F(x)tec choosing to use the age old classic AZERTY that's actually well known for being horrible to type proper French. The French government sponsored researchers to come up with something better and after years of dedicated work they came up with the new AZERTY. Admittedly adoption of the new standard has been poor because most people can't be bothered to learn something new and manufacturers get cold feet when it comes to innovate.

However I was hoping F(x)tec would dare to be bold, cause that's what defines them. The new AZERTY layout makes a lot of sense for Pro1X thumb keyboard because people are not going to do touch typing.

Here are pros and cons of the classic AZERTY on Pro1X:

Pros:

• People are familiar with it.

Cons: 

• Known to be bad on desktop
• Even worth on Pro1X keyboard because you can print only two characters per key where three are often needed.
• Dedicated key for $ and £, hardly any French needs that 😁
• No @ printed on the keyboard, meaning to input and email address you need special knowledge.
• No # printed on the keyboard…
• No pipe | printed on the keyboard…
• No curly bracket printed on the keyboard.

None of those are an issue on the New AZERTY layout.

@Waxberry @Erik Please reconsider what you are doing there.
If you need more work on the new AZERTY layout please feel free to ask.

Here is my current AZERTY proposal:

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Slion

[EskeRahn 5,460]

I fail to see why we need a new thread on this, why not post in the old one just reviving that?

As already posted there, the proposal is more than just a new print, as there are not 'currently' yellow under that many keys.
Sure it is feasible, but come at a cost - and possibly delay(!) - if they have to change the base they already use, and add more yellow stickers before the black layer is printed.
(of course the material cost of the stickers should be negligible, but it is likely to come at a cost to ask the supplier to modify their process)

[Slion 1,201]

20 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

fail to see why we need a new thread on this, why not post in the old one just reviving that?

You are right, feel free to move it to the other thread.

[raymo 177]

@Slion

you are absolutely right, this layout sucks !
I fully approve your layout proposal, I didn't know there was a new azerty layout, yes it's much better (...not difficult)

Having é à ç and è is nice, but without @ and # (and also | ) I can't imagine using this phone !

This mean I should modify my Pro1X's pre-order for a qwerty, but I hope until the hardware come we will find a solution,
If I understand correctly it's possible to modify a little here.
 

Thanks pointing this, it's really a shame.... 64 touch and a layout who sucks...

Edited October 11, 2021 by raymo

[Slion 1,201]

I just sent the following email to FxTec:

Quote

Dear FxTec,

Is there still a chance to change the 'final' AZERTY layout?
It seems you have decided to print my early proposal which is matching classic AZERTY specification but is unfortunately wildly inappropriate without the ability to print three characters per keys. Notably characters such as @ and # are not printed on that keyboard.

See:
https://community.fxtec.com/topic/3442-pro1x-azerty-layout-is-disappointing/

Forum users are already considering ordering QWERTY instead, see:
https://community.fxtec.com/topic/2318-azerty-layout-proposal/?do=findComment&comment=59555

Please consider printing a variant of the new AZERTY layout proposed here:
https://community.fxtec.com/topic/2318-azerty-layout-proposal/

I'm more than happy to help design it within the constraint of the manufacturing process.


Cheers,
S.

 

[Slion 1,201]

On 3/26/2021 at 3:53 PM, EskeRahn said:

SO they can't just take the existing base and print your suggestion in black, that would leave some of your secondary symbol white, and others yellow.

I'm fine with that. I don't think that's a show stopper. The current colour coding is already broken anyway as you need to shift to access most yellow characters.

My New AZERTY proposal obviously does not take into account all manufacturing constraint. Please feel free to print in different colour or just don't print secondary character if there is not enough space.

Most full size keyboards do display main, shift and altgr characters in the same colour.

[Slion 1,201]

Just linking to that other thread where I highlight just few of the flaws of the Pro1X AZERTY layout as published by FxTec in their last update:

The fact is that classic AZERTY is a really poor layout to start with but it's even more crippled when you can't print three characters per key. New AZERTY layout is vastly superior. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Slion

[EskeRahn 5,460]

(merged)

[raymo 177]

6 hours ago, Slion said:

I just sent the following email to FxTec:

 

Same here, I send an email pointing your layout, it's definitely perfect IMO. Good work.
I hope they will do it and not underestimate the French market.