Some clarity, please

[zundappchef 100]

so its been a while since i heard anything about the new pro1 x 
some news is better then none i gues 
im wondering if production started or if the phones are done in production and are going true quality controll
getting loaded with software 
mayby they are waiting for parts themselfs to be made 
just any news would be great from their end 

also on the original order for the fx pro 1  i have had no news 
so im asuming to either never recieve the phone . or recieve 2 phones at the same time 
on hardware i found out they are the same so i gues ill be giving one away at one point 

now in the meantime my blackberry priv finaly gave up and after reviving it over and over it finaly had enough
so i bought myself a new phone in the meantime a samsung a21s 
and i absolutley love it especialy for the price 160 euro's . delivery time was 18 hours 
now i know these phones are in stock but from ordering to recieving it at home they kept me up to date on the whole proccess 
i just hope by the time we all are getting these phones they wont be obsolete 
ontop i saw they are selling parts with their phones
are they expecting us to break these phones ? ( makes me wonder about the quality  )
these are just some of my toughts
 

[Rob. S. 1,664]

10 hours ago, eldarion said:

I believe it's fairly clear there is some stuff they do not want us to know about

Yeah, but in which company isn't some such stuff?

Now the difference between this company and others is that this this one is new and tiny and has everything to lose, one mistake can mean its very existence*, whereas others would only have a dent in their next financial statement.

With the imponderables of what seems to be a rather fragile structure of them as a company, a contract manufacturer, several suppliers and other entities like the warehouse management contractor, a company like Fxtec simply has to be as careful as possible in what they publicly say – in which less always tends to be better than more, especially in difficult situations like they've been facing many since the first production delays in 2019.
__________
* with our overdue phones gone as well as our money, by the way ...

[Kate 1]

On 2/4/2021 at 11:15 AM, Kethersdad said:

Can you let me know what the news was and how one can get that upgrade?  I ordered my Pro1 back in May 2020 and I'd much prefer to upgrade to the Pro1-X than to receive an outdated phone.

Are you saying you ordered the Pro1 8 months ago and you have not received it yet?

Edited February 9, 2021 by Kate

[Kethersdad 1]

1 hour ago, Kate said:

Are you saying you ordered the Pro1 8 months ago and you have not received it yet?

That is correct.  I placed my order on 6 May 2020 and was told that it would take between 4 to 6 weeks from the date of purchase for the device to ship.

[Kethersdad 1]

On 2/4/2021 at 10:04 AM, Hook said:

So you would rather get a blue phone than a black phone? Or you would like to pay more to upgrade memory?  Because the Pro1x is not a "newer phone."  They both have the same parts and specs and are manufactured as needed, not stockpiled in some warehouse, so the Pro1 isn't "outdated" compared to the Pro1X.  Just saying. 😉

Thanks!  I was under the mistaken assumption that the Pro1X was the next generation; I appreciate the additional information.

[npatel1050 132]

Until we have reliable data showing phones are getting delivered in the timeframe they themselves are saying, I won't be placing a new order.

I cancelled my preorder November 2019, 4 months in after multiple delays. Brilliant phone or not I don't like my money being borrowed without permission. Looking back and occasionally checking in to see these threads, I feel like I made the right choice.

Regardless of the circumstances, not giving themselves enough buffer time looks bad. I remember when they said July 2019, then summer, then monthly delays, and it got murkier from there on out. I don't think the first units shipped until October or November 2019 and it was only a small batch. I promptly paid for my product on the assumption it was actually ready or close to it. They did not return the favor. Hopefully they made some interest off the money they held on to, but not for me

Edited February 9, 2021 by npatel1050

[Rob. S. 1,664]

45 minutes ago, npatel1050 said:

Until we have reliable data showing phones are getting delivered in the timeframe they themselves are saying, I won't be placing a new order

Well, that's of course a reasonable decision.

Me, on the other hand, I'm not dependent on getting an ordered device at a specific point in time. Until I'll get it, I can do without a physical keyboard. I will be happy to get a Pro1 (ordered Sept 2019) if and when I get it – instead of having to see a brave new startup with a brilliant new smartphone design fold without me getting either my device or my money back. And instead of probably never getting a such a phone again. While I'm still positive that my device is actually coming within reach now...

 

[npatel1050 132]

4 hours ago, Rob. S. said:

Well, that's of course a reasonable decision.

Me, on the other hand, I'm not dependent on getting an ordered device at a specific point in time. Until I'll get it, I can do without a physical keyboard. I will be happy to get a Pro1 (ordered Sept 2019) if and when I get it – instead of having to see a brave new startup with a brilliant new smartphone design fold without me getting either my device or my money back. And instead of probably never getting a such a phone again. While I'm still positive that my device is actually coming within reach now...

 

I don't understand their fascination with over promising and under delivering - repeatedly. You would think they learn from mistakes...

[VaZso 1,998]

7 hours ago, npatel1050 said:

I don't understand their fascination with over promising and under delivering - repeatedly. You would think they learn from mistakes...

Maybe it is hard to learn during an unpredictably moving industry (as a result of COVID and lockdowns and maybe also uncertain supply channels)...
Manufacturing partners may also be overoptimistic.

I am just guessing, but these may be also real problems.

[Rob. S. 1,664]

8 hours ago, npatel1050 said:

I don't understand their fascination with over promising and under delivering - repeatedly. You would think they learn from mistakes...

Maybe it is no mistake. If they'd give less optimistic forecasts, like "we don't know when you'll get your device, maybe in a few weeks, but more likely in nine or even fifteen months" instead of "7-10 weeks" or whatever they have on their homepage, nobody would be ordering anymore, and you know what that would mean in the end, not just for Fxtec, but also for those who are waiting on their already paid-for phones, and for those who are looking forward to buy further improved keyboard phones in the future. Also, in individual forecasts, being optimistic will keep more customers from giving up and demanding a refund – something that could, in sufficient numbers, easily be fatal for a tiny company in a situation like that, which has just been through something like 1½ years of economic hardship, too. And yes, putting off those who are waiting for their devices to some account is collateral damage Fxtec surely doesn't want or like but can hardly avoid, if that's how it is.

Or, in summary, if they're overstraining truth in their promises, it doesn't have to be because they're greedy crooks who want to milk their customers as much as they can, it may well be because the specific circumstances of their business leave them hardly any other option if they want to stay in that business.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Rob. S.

[npatel1050 132]

1 hour ago, VaZso said:

Maybe it is hard to learn during an unpredictably moving industry (as a result of COVID and lockdowns and maybe also uncertain supply channels)...
Manufacturing partners may also be overoptimistic.

I am just guessing, but these may be also real problems.

They had months of delays even before covid hit.

[npatel1050 132]

1 hour ago, Rob. S. said:

Maybe it is no mistake. If they'd give less optimistic forecasts, like "we don't know when you'll get your device, maybe in a few weeks, but more likely in nine or even fifteen months" instead of "7-10 weeks" or whatever they have on their homepage, nobody would be ordering anymore, and you know what that would mean in the end, not just for Fxtec, but also for those who are waiting on their already paid-for phones, and for those who are looking forward to buy further improved keyboard phones in the future. Also, in individual forecasts, being optimistic will keep more customers from giving up and demanding a refund – something that could, in sufficient numbers, easily be fatal for a tiny company in a situation like that, which has just been through something like 1½ years of economic hardship, too. And yes, putting off those who are waiting for their devices to some account is collateral damage Fxtec surely doesn't want or like but can hardly avoid, if that's how it is.

Or, in summary, if they're overstraining truth in their promises, it doesn't have to be because they're greedy crooks who want to milk their customers as much as they can, it may well be because the specific circumstances of their business leave them hardly any other option if they want to stay in that business.

Lying to customers is a terrible business strategy.

Regardless I've said more than enough...

I genuinely applaud anyone who is still waiting for a phone because you're supporting the idea and keep the company alive. I don't have the patience for that.

[claude0001 1,352]

I believe @Rob. S. is right: Fxtec can neither risk massive order cancellations nor a sudden decrease in the rate of new orders coming in, as they are running on the money from those orders. Hence they are trapped in a situation where they cannot suddenly start admitting that no one can at present predict delivery times reliably.

I waited for my preorder (more or less patiently 🙂 ) for approximately a year. I was in the comfortable position of having another working phone I liked and of not urgently needing that money for other things. I could affort the wait, but I understand the frustration of those in a less luxurious situation.

However, please also consider the following: investing in a small startup company (that relies on this one, single product!) is naturally a much riskier business than buying a random phone off-the-shelf at you local electronics store. It has always been clear that, should Fxtec fail as a company -- and there still are real chances it will -- we could loose the money we invested. Everyone who realises that only at this point should try to evaluate more carefully in the future ...

Edited February 10, 2021 by claude0001

[chippisc 27]

2 hours ago, claude0001 said:

I waited for my preorder (more or less patiently 🙂 ) for approximately a year. I was in the comfortable position of having another working phone I liked and of not urgently needing that money for other things. I could affort the wait, but I understand the frustration of those in a less luxurious situation.

I do not think we mainly talk about preorders here 😉  And that does in my opinion make a big difference in waiting times and estimations.

[claude0001 1,352]

53 minutes ago, chippisc said:

I do not think we mainly talk about preorders here 😉  And that does in my opinion make a big difference in waiting times and estimations.

Well, according to initial estimates, I should have had the phone within three months ...

Their estimates on delivery times have always been off by an insane factor. The reasons have always been issues with their suppliers they could not control. I honestly think that situation has not changed since the initial production phase.

I believe Fxtec is simply too small a fish in the ocean to make pressure on their upstream suppliers regarding delivery deadlines in the present pandemic situation. This is probably something we have to accept.

Edited February 10, 2021 by claude0001

[EskeRahn 5,471]

19 hours ago, npatel1050 said:

Hopefully they made some interest off the money they held on to, but not for me

In the majority of the world you get negative interests putting any money in the bank these days, so I would not count on it...

[EskeRahn 5,471]

22 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

I believe Fxtec is simply too small a fish in the ocean to make pressure on their upstream suppliers regarding delivery deadlines in the present pandemic situation. This is probably something we have to accept.

Sadly I think you have a very good point there. Whatever promises they get may be broken in a jiffy if the factory get a more voluminous costumer placing an order, And most could not care less if a small customer like FxTec get angry being cheated.

[VaZso 1,998]

I think some clarity has been arrived in a form of update at Indiegogo campaign a few minutes ago.
Not an easy problem anyway and that is the biggest problem in the tech industry in general.
It is moving fastly and long-term availability is not a main goal for chip manufacturers.

[Rob. S. 1,664]

11 minutes ago, VaZso said:

I think some clarity has been arrived in a form of update at Indiegogo campaign 

 

[claude0001 1,352]

16 minutes ago, VaZso said:

I think some clarity has been arrived in a form of update at Indiegogo campaign a few minutes ago.

Wow. This confirms what I wrote above in a way even I did not expect.

They admit that this will involve a re-implementation of all operating systems and eventually result in a perfomance loss. That sounds like a serious blow. Also, based on past experience, I would not trust the promised start of shipping in August one second ...

I am sorry for everyone waiting for their phones. 😞

[VaZso 1,998]

1 minute ago, claude0001 said:

Wow. This confirms what I wrote above in a way even I did not expect.

They admit that this will involve a re-implementation of all operating systems and eventually result in a perfomance loss. That sounds like a serious blow. Also, based on past experience, I would not trust the promised start of shipping in August one second ...

I am sorry for everyone waiting for their phones. 😞

The timeframe is believable and decision is right for being relatively fast.
Re-certifications will be needed anyway.

Performance loss is really an unfortunate thing, but I don't feel I need high amount of Pro1 existing performance, so it may be also enough...

However, camera resolution may also gain some positive change compared to original Pro1.

Also, Covid situation may be better as vaccination increases, so I hope it will not delay Pro1-X further.

[claude0001 1,352]

2 minutes ago, VaZso said:

Performance loss is really an unfortunate thing, but I don't feel I need high amount of Pro1 existing performance, so it may be also enough...

However, camera resolution may also gain some positive change compared to original Pro1.

Also, Covid situation may be better as vaccination increases, so I hope it will not delay Pro1-X further.

Let's hope for the best ...

The number of pixels of the camera has been my least concern up to now. I could think of many other things to improve there ... 😉 

I am most worried of the 3rd-party OS'es. LineageOS is IMHO the most advanced operating system for the Pro1 in terms of usability. However it is community-driven and did take some time to take off. If its development is to re-start from scratch, that is a serious set-back. 

[flx 42]

For me a 48mpx camera is a downside.

 

All smartphone camera are crap and rely on heavy postprocess smoothing to look good. On the other hand it's a real pain in the a** to manage the huge files you get from a 48mpx sensor. In a lot of place you need to resize before upload, etc. I prefer a good 12mpx, at max a 16mpx.

[VaZso 1,998]

3 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

If its development is to re-start from scratch, that is a serious set-back. 

I am sure it is not a complete restart from scratch as at this time, other components are seem to be unchanged.
The keyboard for example is an already developed part.
I think a lot of support for the new SoC are already in the kernel but it does not mean all parts of development are already done, also testing should be done.

...but a lot of development related to keyboard and landscape functions, curved screen part, etc. are already in LineageOS and should remain there...
If something has to be changed, it should not be in high level in this relation.

[Rob. S. 1,664]

39 minutes ago, flx said:

For me a 48mpx camera is a downside.

All smartphone camera are crap and rely on heavy postprocess smoothing to look good. On the other hand it's a real pain in the a** to manage the huge files you get from a 48mpx sensor. In a lot of place you need to resize before upload, etc. I prefer a good 12mpx, at max a 16mpx.

You're not up to date there. More megapixels tend to mean worse image quality per pixel, but not necessarily per image. Also, phone cameras using such sensors usually operate in a special pixel-binning mode that combines four physical pixels to one, resulting in very good (for smartphone standards) 12 MP images, and so does Sony's IMX586. This chip is definitely better than the one Fxtec previously used. I can tell; it's the same camera that's available as a DIY upgrade for the Fairphone 3 (which originally had something more like the Pro1's former camera) of which there is one in my household, and I've seen the images. For a single-camera phone, they're really good, and I really look forward to getting that camera in my Pro1.  Whenever that may be! 😉 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Rob. S.