Sticky modifiers

[Doktor Oswaldo 904]

I would like to hear an official statement if the sticky modifier keys will come or not.

This is a must for me since I ordered the US layout and plan to use the us-international layout.

So I will need the combination from AltGr+ letter a lot. How should you press AltGr+P without placing the phone on a table?

I may would have opted for the German layout if I knew this.

But honestly I am still a bit shocked. Was there ever a good hwkb phone without sticky modifier?

 

But also apart from my personal use case. Everybody needs modifiers. They even advert the possibility for ctrl+c/p on their website.

I highly doubt that it is easy to press ctrl+c on this phone without placing it down. (There are a lot of other examples than ctrl+c).

 

Does anybody know a software side solution or other workarounds?

 

P.S. I know it was somehow discussed in this thread. But there it is specifically about Unicode characters. But while there are solutions other than sticky keys to type unicode characters, there are non for normal shortcuts ctrl+c (the other solutions for typing unicode characters are all bad in my opinion, but they do exist)

[EskeRahn 5,460]

I agree that sticky modifiers could be a nice OPTION.

BUT remember that with Shift, Ctrl and YellowArrow on BOTH sides, we actually got easy access to FIVE layouts with a single thumb from either side:

* (None),

* Shift,

* Ctrl,

* YellowArrow

* Ctrl+YellowArrow

And I suggest to handle the last one as you would an AltGr in the mapping.

 

I'm not saying that we should not have sticky keys, merely that we might not need them as bad as we thought.

 

It is unclear if Sym is supposed to be used as yet another modifier key, or to launch some symbol library, or something else....

 

So maybe the 'stickyness' could be offered in three flavours

None

Alt (And Sym) only

All modifiers

And hopefully with some hotkey to turn it on off, as it might be annoying used on a desk.

 

[Hook 3,020]

So, I'm just curious, are we talking about using the phone one-handed? I don't tend to use my devices one-handed, possibly a hangover from using my Palms with a stylus. Even my blackberries I typed on with two hands. So at first I was confused about why holding down Ctrl and typing c or v would be hard. Now I'm curious what using sticky keys would be like.

 

While I've always wanted a keyboard slider, for various odd reasons, I've never had one. Blackberry keyboards were always so cramped for my big hands that I never wrote more than I had to on them, but that's what my work issued.

 

I like Eske's idea of it being able to be switched off and on by the user with possibly a couple of flavors of on.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

So, I’m just curious, are we talking about using the phone one-handed?

 

Well even two handed it is a matter of the grip. The intuitive good grip operation is to hold in in both hands and type with the thumbs.

And here it could be awkward to press say Alt+1.

At the least it would require to let go the grip of the right hand.

 

But one could even hold it with one hand completely passive and operate it completely by four or five fingers on the free hand - and if so sticky would not be needed, (except for some extreme combos like Shift+Alt+YellowArrow+P

 

So much a matter of how you hold it if it is needed, I prefer the simple two thumb operation, but might change to using several fingers on the right hand instead,

I have even experimented with various odd hybrids of holding in left hand and using left thumb, but only support the right side with one or two fingers, and operate with two-three right hand fingers. as pressing say BackSpace when supported relaxed in left hand only feels slightly wobbly.

 

But with alternative holding unwanted screen interaction is more likely, Time will tell what I will find most productive...

[Wheeljack 212]

From what I remember of the Düsseldorf meetup, optional sticky modifiers are definitely on the todo list.

[Craig 1,435]

So maybe the ‘stickyness’ could be offered in three flavours

 

None

 

Alt (And Sym) only

 

All modifiers

And hopefully with some hotkey to turn it on off, as it might be annoying used on a desk.

 

Don't forget shift. For those of used to hardware keyboards already, we expect a sticky shift and that's obviously the most commonly used modifier, at least in English. I'm surprised this is even complicated since most (all?) other keyboard devices already do this.

 

 

[EskeRahn 5,460]

Don’t forget shift. For those of used to hardware keyboards already, we expect a sticky shift and that’s obviously the most commonly used modifier, at least in English. I’m surprised this is even complicated since most (all?) other keyboard devices already do this.

 

Shift is part of "All"... The suggestion with THREE options, was to allow a mode where stickyness was limited to the modifiers only available on one side.

 

Sticky modifiers are used to compensate for the lacking ability to do it directly with multiple fingers. But as there are Shift, Ctrl and YellowArrow in both sides, it would be faster to write say P to use the Left Shift combined with the P by the right thumb.

 

It is not as much a matter of it being complicated (I think), as a matter of it being a nuisance slowing down typing in the common scenario.

Sure for the complex multi-modifier key strokes sticky would be preferable, but not for most users for writing ordinary text.

That is a combo like Alt+Sh+Tab would be virtually impossible to to with thumbs only.

 

But one should weigh whether these combos are so common that the inconvenience in letting the normal grip go to do them with one hand free occationally, is enough to outweigh the slowing down of normal typing.

There will be no general answer for that, it will depend on each users usage-pattern, so hence I suggest the three options:

* No sticky

* Alt and Sym Sticky

* All Sticky (Shift, Ctrl, Alt, YellowArrow, Sym)

 

[Doktor Oswaldo 904]

* Ctrl+YellowArrow

And I suggest to handle the last one as you would an AltGr in the mapping.

 

This may be a solution (and thank you for the hint) but it may also hinder the tipping flow.

Depending on where the letter is you need, you have to press and hold both the keys with your right or left hand.

This most certainly requires you to shift hand position. I already see myself dropping the phone.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

EskeRahn wrote:

* Ctrl+YellowArrow

 

And I suggest to handle the last one as you would an AltGr in the mapping.

 

This may be a solution (and thank you for the hint) but it may also hinder the tipping flow.

 

Depending on where the letter is you need, you have to press and hold both the keys with your right or left hand.

 

This most certainly requires you to shift hand position. I already see myself dropping the phone.

 

Well you got Ctrl-YellowArrow next to each other on both sides, it is just pressing a thumb on both with one hand, combined with whatever key with the other thumb in the other side. No need to let go the grip at all :)

[vlycop 38]

From what I remember of the Düsseldorf meetup, optional sticky modifiers are definitely on the todo list.

 

That's good, but how post lunch update will come ? Android side or with the need to flash the hardware ?

I don't understand very well what software control you have on hardware in android :(

[Doktor Oswaldo 904]

Craig wrote:

Don’t forget shift. For those of used to hardware keyboards already, we expect a sticky shift and that’s obviously the most commonly used modifier, at least in English. I’m surprised this is even complicated since most (all?) other keyboard devices already do this.

Shift is part of “All”… The suggestion with THREE options, was to allow a mode where stickyness was limited to the modifiers only available on one side.

 

Sticky modifiers are used to compensate for the lacking ability to do it directly with multiple fingers. But as there are Shift, Ctrl and YellowArrow in both sides, it would be faster to write say P to use the Left Shift combined with the P by the right thumb.

 

It is not as much a matter of it being complicated (I think), as a matter of it being a nuisance slowing down typing in the common scenario.

 

Sure for the complex multi-modifier key strokes sticky would be preferable, but not for most users for writing ordinary text.

 

That is a combo like Alt+Sh+Tab would be virtually impossible to to with thumbs only.

 

But one should weigh whether these combos are so common that the inconvenience in letting the normal grip go to do them with one hand free occationally, is enough to outweigh the slowing down of normal typing.

 

There will be no general answer for that, it will depend on each users usage-pattern, so hence I suggest the three options:

 

* No sticky

 

* Alt and Sym Sticky

 

* All Sticky (Shift, Ctrl, Alt, YellowArrow, Sym)

 

Sticky does not hinder the normal tipping. You can still just press shift and a letter. The only drawback is, that if you change your mind you have to cancel shift.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

According to this: hhttps://source.android.com/devices/input/key-character-map-files#keyboard-type-declaration it seems to be a matter of the KCM file signalling "FULL" or "ALPHA", so MIGHT be as easy as having it as two 'languages'...

 

The "character picker" mentioned in the example for ALPHA sounds interesting too!!

[vlycop 38]

As long as i can, with both thumb, type all usual keyboard char, including accent and spacial ($@#!;&_?|{[~ then the how dosn't really mater to me.

I just want a phone who will allow me to fix the prod servers away from my laptop. I'll get use to the caviat

[_DW_ 628]

TBH I don't want sticky modifiers I use 2 hands on hardware keyboard phones

[Gon009 70]

I will definitely take advantage of having function keys on both sides, however I think that an option to have a toggle between sticky and non-sticky should be a thing in my opinion.

Different people will use the phone, some won't need sticky modifiers, some will need it. There's really no choice currently when it comes to landscape keyboard phones and in my eyes, Pro1 should be as universal as possible. It's not that we can buy a phone with keyboard we want because there will be only Pro1. Because of that keyboard should be as much customizable as possible so everyone wanting a physical keyboard can adjust it to own needs. Sticky modifiers or not, function key remapping, altgr and other things. Only this way Pro1 can be a king of physical landscape keyboards that will be a good replacement for all old physical landscape sliders so everyone wanting a physical landscape keyboard can buy Pro1 without any worries. I don't know however how much freedom Android gives over the hardware.

[michael.bosscha 142]

TBH I don’t want sticky modifiers I use 2 hands on hardware keyboard phones

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't pressing shift/alt once and then pressing the key you want to get the desired symbol also a sticky? Because I still type faster that way instead of reminding myself I need to press left and then use my right hand to get the symbol, and another symbol requires me to turn it around. I would not be happy with such a solution...

[EskeRahn 5,460]

TBH I don’t want sticky modifiers I use 2 hands on hardware keyboard phones

 

The only place I in 'normal' usage missed the sticky is to do Alt+Tab. Currently I just let go the double hand grip with the right hand somewhat for that. But I hope that YellowArrow+Tab is going to be a double for that somehow.

[Craig 1,435]

Out of curiosity, why would anyone want to disable sticky modifiers, if given a choice. It doesn't stop you from pressing both keys at once, just makes it so you don't have to if you dont want to...

[_DW_ 628]

I would use the keyboard like a normal pc keyboard. I have a keyone at the moment and I miss-type all the type because of the behaviour of the modifier keys I always automatically press both and then the key remains on for the next key press, so I would prefer to turn them off.

 

But it's not a problem as they haven't added sticky option yet but when they do I wish to be able to choose to use it :)

[vlycop 38]

I would use the keyboard like a normal pc keyboard. I have a keyone at the moment and I miss-type all the type because of the behaviour of the modifier keys I always automatically press both and then the key remains on for the next key press, so I would prefer to turn them off.

 

But it’s not a problem as they haven’t added sticky option yet but when they do I wish to be able to choose to use it :)

 

That is a bad implement, a sticky key should only stay on for one key, it's not a caps lock. So if you press both, it should go back off immediately, that how mine have always work, and that way it doesn't impact people who don't use it.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

That is a bad implement, a sticky key should only stay on for one key, it’s not a caps lock. So if you press both, it should go back off immediately, that how mine have always work, and that way it doesn’t impact people who don’t use it.

 

By the test I have done on the early unit the two pairs of Sift and Ctrl, seems wired in parallel, but the two YellowArrows seems like somewhat indepedant, though deeply tied sending same keycode (by looking on what happens to make and break codes when more than one key is pressed at the time)

 

But actually android got independent keycodes prepared for right and left versions for those https://developer.android.com/reference/android/view/KeyEvent

 

So it could be the sticky software that might or might not handle some pairing of different codes... as cancelling or not cancelling each other.

 

But from what I have seen, this will NOT be an issue for Ctrl and Shift on the Pro1, as they are handled as one.

[Craig 1,435]

Just got my pro1 today, did all updates.   It seems to me, no sticky modifiers, at least I can't figure out how to enable them easily.
 

[auvo.salmi 135]

27 minutes ago, Craig said:

Just got my pro1 today, did all updates.   It seems to me, no sticky modifiers, at least I can't figure out how to enable them easily.
 

No there's not sticky modifiers. At least yet. Btw gratz for the device 🙂

[EskeRahn 5,460]

38 minutes ago, Craig said:

Just got my pro1 today, did all updates.   It seems to me, no sticky modifiers, at least I can't figure out how to enable them easily.
 

Yup, t has been discussed earlier, and as I understand it, they either need to offer a way for os to select between Full/Alpha OR youu would have to manually do that on a rooted device

https://source.android.com/devices/input/key-character-map-files

• ALPHA: A keyboard with all the letters, and maybe some numbers.

  An alphabetic keyboard supports text entry directly but may have a condensed layout with a small form factor. In contrast to a FULL keyboard, some symbols may only be accessible using special on-screen character pickers. In addition, to improve typing speed and accuracy, the framework provides special affordances for alphabetic keyboards such as auto-capitalization and toggled / locked SHIFT and ALT keys.

  This type of keyboard is generally designed for thumb typing.

• FULL: A full PC-style keyboard.

  A full keyboard behaves like a PC keyboard. All symbols are accessed directly by pressing keys on the keyboard without on-screen support or affordances such as auto-capitalization.

  This type of keyboard is generally designed for full two hand typing.

[Craig 1,435]

Ok.  Will set to alpha, I want toggled / locked SHIFT and ALT keys ;).    Don't supposed you already figured out how to set that (manually on a rooted device)?   I guess I could look at the link you provided...

Edited December 11, 2019 by Craig