Shifted or standard QWERTY layout. Pros and Cons

[okayphoneme 28]

I'm still agonising over whether to buy the Pro1. There are a lot of great things about it, but I just can't get accept the bad keyboard layout. I was considering getting the QWERTZ model and having some vinyl stickers made up to change the remaining keys - but it seems ridiculous to spend so much on a phone and then put some crummy stickers on it. The worst thing is that this hack would hide the backlight on the keys (ultimately why I've given up on the idea). I tolerated the N900's limited layout, but the N900 was a much smaller device and there really wasn't enough room to have everything 100% right - even so, it was still a huge PITA to do any symbol-heavy typing and required a custom key map. I've even considered again just putting up with the QWERTY layout but some users who have the device already are saying it's annoying.

I understand the argument about having the letter keys centered, but it just doesn't seem worth the cost to me. The whole point of having a full physical keyboard is so I can seamlessly switch between a PC and my phone with a minimal loss of efficiency.

I know F(x)tec has its work cut out getting the phones to everyone at the moment, but once the dust has settled, I hope you guys will at least consider making an alternative keyboard layout for those of us who are sensitive to these annoying little things. If I knew that there were a possibility of a revised QWERTY layout being produced and sold separately later (soon), I would buy a Pro1 today.

I made a mock up for what I think the UK version should look like - it's very close to the full standard UK ISO layout. The delete key is sacrificed (not a problem: we could map shift + backspace to delete, for example) and we lose one ctrl key, which was redundant anyway.

Sorry to keep ranting about this.

[EskeRahn 5,350]

Some have also talked about "US International" as an interesting option, That is basically what you have above, but with national letters of various languages reasonably accessible. See e.g. here.

[VaZso 1,988]

If a non-shifted US layout was existed when I have ordered my device, then I would picked that instead of QWERTZ.

[enPfzr4v 239]

I haven't heard anyone that actually has the Pro1 complain about these aspects of the layout.

[EskeRahn 5,350]

9 minutes ago, abielins said:

I haven't heard anyone that actually has the Pro1 complain about these aspects of the layout.

One

[netman 1,424]

Without having tried it yet.. Am I the only one who thinks it at least seems like a good idea, so the f and j are more equidistant from the sides?

[EskeRahn 5,350]

10 minutes ago, netman said:

Without having tried it yet.. Am I the only one who thinks it at least seems like a good idea, so the f and j are more equidistant from the sides?

Well they are not. As G is almost exactly centred, the F&J markers are shifted the same amount to the right on qwertY, as they are to the left on qwertZ.
(Splitting sticks actually even a tiny bit more to the right as the G is slightly to the right of the centre)

But that said the A-Z block IS more centred on the qwertY. So for users only using A-Z, and if you do not compare with a standard keyboard it is a fine idea. But rather odd requirements. ... Had they just shifted the number row too, it would have been better IMHO.

[netman 1,424]

2 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

Well they are not. As G is almost exactly centred, the F&J markers are shifted the same amount to the right on qwertY, as they are to the left on qwertZ.
(Splitting sticks actually even a tiny bit more to the right as the G is slightly to the right of the centre)

You are right.. it's the beginning of where letters are that would be more centered... Being so comfortable typing on a normal keyboard I don't even realize my pinky rests on ; and not a letter in the home position, those things become taken for granted after time.

[silversolver 849]

11 hours ago, okayphoneme said:

I'm still agonising over whether to buy the Pro1. There are a lot of great things about it, but I just can't get accept the bad keyboard layout. I was considering getting the QWERTZ model and having some vinyl stickers made up to change the remaining keys - but it seems ridiculous to spend so much on a phone and then put some crummy stickers on it. The worst thing is that this hack would hide the backlight on the keys (ultimately why I've given up on the idea). I tolerated the N900's limited layout, but the N900 was a much smaller device and there really wasn't enough room to have everything 100% right - even so, it was still a huge PITA to do any symbol-heavy typing and required a custom key map. I've even considered again just putting up with the QWERTY layout but some users who have the device already are saying it's annoying.

I understand the argument about having the letter keys centered, but it just doesn't seem worth the cost to me. The whole point of having a full physical keyboard is so I can seamlessly switch between a PC and my phone with a minimal loss of efficiency.

I know F(x)tec has its work cut out getting the phones to everyone at the moment, but once the dust has settled, I hope you guys will at least consider making an alternative keyboard layout for those of us who are sensitive to these annoying little things. If I knew that there were a possibility of a revised QWERTY layout being produced and sold separately later (soon), I would buy a Pro1 today.

I made a mock up for what I think the UK version should look like - it's very close to the full standard UK ISO layout. The delete key is sacrificed (not a problem: we could map shift + backspace to delete, for example) and we lose one ctrl key, which was redundant anyway.

Sorry to keep ranting about this.

From prior experience, I'm certain I'll get accustomed to the peculiarities of the existing QWERTY board when it arrives. I can also say unreservedly that I prefer your layout, and honestly don't fully understand why they didn't settle on something much closer to it. Perhaps the Pro2 will implement some of these changes.

In the meantime, a slightly odd keyboard is a huge improvement over what EVERYONE else is offering. :)

Edited December 15, 2019 by silversolver

[Craig 1,435]

11 hours ago, abielins said:

I haven't heard anyone that actually has the Pro1 complain about these aspects of the layout.

I have indeed complained.  Was skeptical before about the shift, and annoyed about lack of slash key even before I received it.  Now that i've got it, I'm already imaging how it should have been layed out, and don't see the need for shifted layout at all.     Basically unshift it, get rid of the slant arrows, add a slash key down bottom, make the sym key work as alt-gr (for us intl, and of course they need to allow us to select other layouts besides 'default'), swap del and backspace, make esc key work as esc, and make number row in combination with Fx key do F1-F12.  Also don't need capslock key, shift-shift should do that (if sticky shift was working...).

I would even mind if the US intl character set was also printed on the keys, but as I only type english, I've already memorized the ones I use regularly, and when I find another one I need it's usually my first guess... like when I wanted the superscript 1 for Pro¹ it happend to be altgr-1.   But I'm just as happy with it not printed, cuz probably not everyone's gunna use us-intl anyway, although I think it should be the default personally.

 

By my count, that's 61 keys in standard us international as pictured.   Remove Win keys, add Fx key, add Esc & del, and add the 4 directional arrows = 66; exactly the same as we have now; can remove capslock if desired. 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Craig
counting

[matf-kabouik 414]

I plan on customizing my layout on Sailfish a little, hopefully to get something closer to us-intl for accents and other international characters (though I probably won't compensate for the shifted layout, as it would make it too different from the key labels), but one of the first things I'll do is invert ? and /. Shift shift instead of caps lock would be nice too, not sure if this can be done.

Edited December 15, 2019 by matf

[Craig 1,435]

Pretty sure it can be done in sfos, on PQ it's that way by default... shift shift for capslock, the capslock key functions as left ctrl.

[sequestris 709]

On 10/28/2020 at 3:06 PM, VaZso said:

Yes, default QWERTY layout will be changed and there are also new layouts.

How is it different?

[VaZso 1,988]

5 minutes ago, sequestris said:

How is it different?

Quoting from @EskeRahn's site, here is the Pro1 layout:

...and here is the layout they put into IGG page:

Pro1's original QWERTY keyboard is shifted while Pro1-X's QWERTY keyboard is unshifted (look at near Q, A and Z letters).

[EskeRahn 5,350]

20 minutes ago, VaZso said:

Pro1's original QWERTY keyboard is shifted while Pro1-X's QWERTY keyboard is unshifted (look at near Q, A and Z letters).

...We now get back to standard with "Q" under "1" et cetera 👍👏

[VaZso 1,988]

15 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

...We now get back to standard with "Q" under "1" et cetera 👍👏

Right, my problem with shifted QWERTY solution was the harder compatibility with international layouts and that is why I picked QWERTZ instead.

So the reason was clear and it may successfully done its purpose (I haven't tried it), so they wanted to make a good decision for Pro1 but for people using any layouts other than standard QWERTY or the layouts Pro1 have, it may made usage harder.

...and yes, the shifted QWERTY but unshifted numerical part seemed to be the biggest real usage confusion if we are not counting international usages.

[Doktor Oswaldo 901]

6 hours ago, VaZso said:

Right, my problem with shifted QWERTY solution was the harder compatibility with international layouts and that is why I picked QWERTZ instead.

So the reason was clear and it may successfully done its purpose (I haven't tried it), so they wanted to make a good decision for Pro1 but for people using any layouts other than standard QWERTY or the layouts Pro1 have, it may made usage harder.

...and yes, the shifted QWERTY but unshifted numerical part seemed to be the biggest real usage confusion if we are not counting international usages.

I just can say, that you get used to it. Yeah it is strange at the beginning, but you have to learn a new thumb layout anyway.
While I would have opted for a non shifted layout in the beginning, I am not sure if it is better once you are used to it.

[VaZso 1,988]

18 minutes ago, Doktor Oswaldo said:

I just can say, that you get used to it. Yeah it is strange at the beginning, but you have to learn a new thumb layout anyway.
While I would have opted for a non shifted layout in the beginning, I am not sure if it is better once you are used to it.

However, if you have regular but different characters used frequently in your language, shifted keys also force them elsewhere which is a bit problematic mix.
It is like "é" was moved a row higher, "á" remained in place, "ő" and "ú" was moved to the opposite side and a row lower, "ű" was moved to the opposite side, etc.
This kind of mix is inconvenient and why try to learn it if I can go for an unshifted version?
 

[Doktor Oswaldo 901]

1 hour ago, VaZso said:

However, if you have regular but different characters used frequently in your language, shifted keys also force them elsewhere which is a bit problematic mix.
It is like "é" was moved a row higher, "á" remained in place, "ő" and "ú" was moved to the opposite side and a row lower, "ű" was moved to the opposite side, etc.
This kind of mix is inconvenient and why try to learn it if I can go for an unshifted version?
 

Well I can't say anything about that, since I use the US-Int Layout to type "äöü" and so on.
But why to learn something new? Because it keeps your hand centered on the phone. In the none shifted layout you either have to type more with your left thumb, what slows you down, or hold it unsymmetrical.

I needed some time to get used to the none shifted numbers especially. But as said I have to say now. There is the possibility that the pros are bigger than the cons. But it is hard to tell without A and B Testing.

[VaZso 1,988]

2 hours ago, Doktor Oswaldo said:

But it is hard to tell without A and B Testing.

Definitively.

Basically US keyboard is a bit shifted as alphabets are closer to your left hand while less frequently used keys are closer to your right hand.

...but have a look at this kind of keyboard for example and compare it with US layout:

You may notice it is not shifted like US layout, as all of the "special" keys have meaning like ő,ű,é,á,ö,í,ú,ü,ó.

If you shift it back to centre like it is with Pro1's shifted layout, then you mess up the layout above.
So that is the problem with "shifting back" and a national keyboard.

I will try to translate your following text:

Quote

But why to learn something new? Because it keeps your hand centered on the phone. In the none shifted layout you either have to type more with your left thumb, what slows you down, or hold it unsymmetrical.

I needed some time to get used to the none shifted numbers especially. But as said I have to say now. There is the possibility that the pros are bigger than the cons. But it is hard to tell without A and B Testing.

Quote

...de miért kellene újat tanulni? Azért, mert középen tartja a kezed a telefonon. A nem eltolt kiosztás esetén vagy többet kell írnod a bal hüvelykujjaddal, ami lelassít, vagy aszimmetrikusan tartani azt.

Kellett némi idő, hogy megszokjam, különösképpen a nem eltolt számokat. (...) Van rá esély, hogy az előnyei nagyobbak a hátrányainál. ...de nehéz ezt A és B tesztelés nélkül megmondani.

So you may find these extra characters are just like any others if you write in another language.

Edited November 5, 2020 by VaZso

[EskeRahn 5,350]

We are getting terrible off topic with this interesting debate on the shifting. Any good suggestion for a thread on the subject it could be merged to, or should we create a new thread?

...And rather that repeat myself on the subject, I will refer to this on my opinion on the subject,

[Doktor Oswaldo 901]

1 hour ago, EskeRahn said:

We are getting terrible off topic with this interesting debate on the shifting. Any good suggestion for a thread on the subject it could be merged to, or should we create a new thread?

...And rather that repeat myself on the subject, I will refer to this on my opinion on the subject,

Well you are right. Sorry. Actually I think this discussion has been repeated multiple times. And don't get me wrong. I still think an unshifted layout would have been the better choice. If only because it is easier to sell it. I am just saying it is not as bad as I expected it, could even be better after getting used to it.

To answer your question Eske. I would be okay with just deleting this discussion here. No need to document these things over and over.

[Hook 2,821]

2 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

We are getting terrible off topic with this interesting debate on the shifting. Any good suggestion for a thread on the subject it could be merged to, or should we create a new thread?

...And rather that repeat myself on the subject, I will refer to this on my opinion on the subject,

You could always really confuse people and merge the posts at the end of this thread.  😄

 

 

[sequestris 709]

23 hours ago, VaZso said:

Quoting from @EskeRahn's site, here is the Pro1 layout:

 

...and here is the layout they put into IGG page:

 

Pro1's original QWERTY keyboard is shifted while Pro1-X's QWERTY keyboard is unshifted (look at near Q, A and Z letters).

Got it. Are they going to seel just the keyboards to us Pro1ers?

[EskeRahn 5,350]

1 hour ago, sequestris said:

Got it. Are they going to seel just the keyboards to us Pro1ers?

I certainly hope so, I'm sure that could make a lot of QWERTY users a lot happier about their Pro1. especially those with languages with national characters .