Design the QWERTZ layout

[raphaelcno 21]

What about casting “priorities” rather than “votes”

 

Good idea!

I will give following points to the priorities:

- 4 points to the first priority

- 3 points to the second priority

- 2 points to the third priority

- 1 point to the fourth priority.

That means each person has 10 points in total.

Or maybe there should be more points for the first priority, like in Eurovision Song Contest :-)

 

For people who only choose one priority, I will give 2 points to the three remaining choices.

For people who only choose two priorities, I will give 1.5 point to the two remaining choices.

 

I will put the results in this Google Sheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NHpjmJa8hGqrlOlIAYqij45cXRhdyJ1a-lWDNYKZVsk/edit?usp=sharing

 

[elvissteinjr 359]

Let's see if this goes anywhere. I'm German and will very likely be an user of this layout so maybe my opinion matters a little bit.

Okay, for the capitalization of words:

2, 3, 4, 1

 

For the degree symbol:

12, 13, 14, 11

 

This is also assuming the latest changes by raphaelcno will be applied. Those look pretty sane to me.

[ycs 3]

I vote for 4 - to have keyboard for all users, who want QWERTZ layout. Not all are German, bul lot of us are guys from IT. And everybody form IT know what CRTL, ALT, ESC... is but only few of us have strg, eing on keyboards. It doesnt mather if its uppercase or lowercase. I hope, that F(x)tec is going to build international product and we all can accept some non-local (but internationaly understad) keys.

[Parhelion 114]

Priorities in descending order:

2>1>4>3

13>12>11>14 (Though I'm not quite sure about that one, hardly ever use the °, don't want the keyboard to become overloaded and unclear)

 

How about exponents? They wouldn't have to be printed like on the standard keyboard, but it would be nice to have them for mathematical usage, what do you think?

[Jacob_S 128]

My priorities are 2>1>3>4 and 12>13>14>11.

And I also want to once again endorse the proposal of raphaelcno (thanks for the explanation regarding '/# by the way).

[EskeRahn 5,460]

How about exponents? They wouldn’t have to be printed like on the standard keyboard, but it would be nice to have them for mathematical usage, what do you think?

 

I certainly hope that we will be able to map all kind of combinations of the shift keys,

I would think that an obvious choice would be to have Ctrl+†+digits give the superscript digits, (aka exponents).

[EskeRahn 5,460]

I vote for 4 – to have keyboard for all users, who want QWERTZ layout. Not all are German, bul lot of us are guys from IT. And everybody form IT know what CRTL, ALT, ESC… is but only few of us have strg, eing on keyboards. It doesnt mather if its uppercase or lowercase. I hope, that F(x)tec is going to build international product and we all can accept some non-local (but internationaly understad) keys.

 

My hope is that they apart from the print with shifted A-Z for languages without national letters, and the German QWERTZ print, will consider a 'general' international layout print, based on QWERTY non shifted, that would be usable with many languages logical layouts, without the print being terrible wrong.

Despite I wish this project all the luck it can get, I doubt that all languages will have enough users to have their own print, and here a common base print would be nice.

[raphaelcno 21]

I propose a vote:

– Alternative 1: strg / entf / esc / alt / sym

– Alternative 2: Strg / Entf / Esc / Alt / Sym

– Alternative 3: STRG / ENTF / ESC / ALT / SYM

– Alternative 4: Ctrl / Del / Esc / Alt / Sym

 

I propose a vote for the degree symbol ° (Alt+0176):

– Alternative 11: No symbol on the keyboard

– Alternative 12: Symbol on the R key

– Alternative 13: Symbol on the A key

– Alternative 14: Symbol on another key

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NHpjmJa8hGqrlOlIAYqij45cXRhdyJ1a-lWDNYKZVsk/edit?usp=sharing

 

Based on the votes/priorities so far, the first priority is alternative 2 (Strg) (20 points) and alternative 12 (R key) (15 points).

That gives the following layout:

 

[attachment file=F(x) - QWERTZ-20190427 - 2019-05-07_RCa.png]

 

It is still possible to vote if you have not yet :-)

 

[raphaelcno 21]

@Waxberry

For information, acute accent (´) is Alt+0180 while apostrophe (') is Alt+0039.

 

[attachment file=F(x) - QWERTZ-20190427 - 2019-05-07_2_RCa.png]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_accent

[Jacob_S 128]

It would be great to hear of @Waxberry if the latest suggestions got noticed and will be adapted. I'm kinda worried as there haven't been updates for quite a while.

[Waxberry 638]

acute accent is planned to be added. But the rest will be kept as it was, as it was mainly to be used for general German speakers.

We are working on the Sym key to be user definable so you can add your missing symbols into sym key and pick it when pressed.

[Jacob_S 128]

Thank you for your answer. Would it be possible to post a picture of your updated layout in good time?

[raphaelcno 21]

acute accent is planned to be added. But the rest will be kept as it was, as it was mainly to be used for general German speakers.

 

We are working on the Sym key to be user definable so you can add your missing symbols into sym key and pick it when pressed.

 

Maybe there is a misunderstanding, but these changes have been done in order to have a layout as close as possible to the standard German QWERTZ layout.

 

[attachment file=F(x) - QWERTZ-20190427 - 2019-05-07_RCa.png]

 

[elvissteinjr 359]

acute accent is planned to be added. But the rest will be kept as it was, as it was mainly to be used for general German speakers.

 

We are working on the Sym key to be user definable so you can add your missing symbols into sym key and pick it when pressed.

 

I can accept the resulting layout from that and will still get a device with it, but as a German user I have to say that the argument for not making the other changes is not really valid.

[Waxberry 638]

Is degree symbol and ~ above letter N commonly used in German keyboard? I haven't seen it at all.

[Keyahnig 80]

Is degree symbol and ~ above letter N commonly used in German keyboard? I haven’t seen it at all.

 

I use the degree symbol quite often. "ñ" isn't used in German.

[Doktor Oswaldo 904]

Th

 

Is degree symbol and ~ above letter N commonly used in German keyboard? I haven’t seen it at all.

 

The tilde ~ is normally on Alt-Gr + + I think the suggested layout tries to eliminate the need to print a third character on the key.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

Please note, that a symbol not PRINTED on the keyboard does not mean that it is not possible to FUNCTIONALLY have it. So if only a minority would need ~ it could still be functionally on the N, even if not printed.

 

I think that adding special symbol PRINTS that only a minority would benefit from, would just make the keyboard look messy for the majority that do not need these symbols (or would prefer other symbols).

[Doktor Oswaldo 904]

Please note, that a symbol not PRINTED on the keyboard does not mean that it is not possible to FUNCTIONALLY have it. So if only a minority would need ~ it could still be functionally on the N, even if not printed.

 

I think that adding special symbol PRINTS that only a minority would benefit from, would just make the keyboard look messy for the majority that do not need these symbols (or would prefer other symbols).

 

Agreed, I just tried to show the motivation of the post. I would leave ~ where it belongs to (on the + key accessible with Alt Gr) and while preferring a third character set on the keys (not only for german layouts) I would also prefer to have the key at the right place without a print.

[Jacob_S 128]

Both the degree symbol and tilde are standard on german keyboards. ° (which is troubingly hidden on my PRIV, by the way) is usually called by pressing "Shift" + "^" and ~ by "AltGr" + "+" . I would prefer to have them both printed on my keyboard. And as you eliminated the third print on every other key by moving the symbols to keys nearby it would totally make sense to do the same for ~. One could also place it on L to have it nearer to its original place, but as someone already mentioned n is more intuitive as it is used for well known foreign words like Piñata there.

[Jacob_S 128]

Oh and as there are some here that seem to be unhappy with ~ printed on n, I should maybe add that (of ° and ~) tilde would be the symbol I could relinquish easier. But the degree symbol is something I would really like to have printed.

[Parhelion 114]

We need to distinguish between the ñ not used in German (even though I personally might sometimes stroll around in spanish a little bit), therefore usually not directly acessable on the keyboard, and the ~ on its own, used for "approximately" or some mathematical or technical applications, which is what the AltGr + + produces.

The ° is more often in use with temperatures, angles and geographical coordinates.

 

It really depends on the idea one is following. If you want a keyboard as close as possible to the standard, it would be both; If it were a case of either/or I'd prefer the °;

and finally I could live without both of them, since the E7 is my best reference I'm not used to so many keys anyway but rather opening the Sym menu and choosing what I need..

 

Just don't forget that the standard keyboard was designed to have as many of the commonly used symbols as possible, but that the small size and availability of the touchscreen was NOT included in the design.

[raphaelcno 21]

Is degree symbol and ~ above letter N commonly used in German keyboard? I haven’t seen it at all.

 

Here is a standard German keyboard, you can see the two symbols shown in red circle:

 

[attachment file=F(x) - German keyboard_Degree + ~.png]

 

The ~ symbol is not located on the N key on the dekstop keyboard, but there is no empty key next to its original location on the Pro1 keyboard. It may also be located on L key instead, but I think most people associate the ~ sign to the N character.

[raphaelcno 21]

Of course it's possible to discuss which symbols should be printed or not printed on the keyboard.

Some people don't use ~, some don't use °, some don't use §, some don't use { and so on.

Who will decide which symbols to remove from the standard keyboard layout? This is a personal opinion, and the printed layout cannot be adapted for each user.

 

[raphaelcno 21]

Here is an overview of the symbols which have been moved to other keys than their original location:

 

[attachment file=F(x) - German keyboard + QWERTZ Pro1 - 02.png]