Design the QWERTZ layout

[raphaelcno 21]

@Waxberry

It would be nice if you could publish a flat image as a PDF file that we can print at exact scale, so that we can test it, Thank you :-)

[Waxberry 638]

@waxberry

 

It would be nice if you could publish a flat image as a PDF file that we can print at exact scale, so that we can test it, Thank you :-)

 

That's a good idea! We will do so. :)

[elvissteinjr 355]

– ẞ and Euro sign can be places as combo / secondary key

 

Something of note here:

What you have in that post is a capital "Eszett"/sharp s. This thing didn't officially exist in German orthography until 2017 and has no use besides writing words with ß in all-caps. That way of writing those all-caps words is still very uncommon compared ot the previous method of replacing the ß with SS, which is still valid.

This is not what you find on typical German keyboard. On those you have small, non-captial ß as the character on the keyboard and no direct way to enter the captial one.

 

This might seem very minor, but it would be odd to have that character on the keyboard print.

[EskeRahn 5,399]

Waxberry wrote:

– ẞ and Euro sign can be places as combo / secondary key

Something of note here:

 

What you have in that post is a capital “Eszett”/sharp s. This thing didn’t officially exist in German orthography until 2017 and has no use besides writing words with ß in all-caps. That way of writing those all-caps words is still very uncommon compared ot the previous method of replacing the ß with SS, which is still valid.

 

This is not what you find on typical German keyboard. On those you have small, non-captial ß as the character on the keyboard and no direct way to enter the captial one.

 

This might seem very minor, but it would be odd to have that character on the keyboard print.

 

Interesting. Did not know that. I see that a lot of windows fonts are not yet(?) updated with the capital sharp S either, and in some the implementation looks dubious (try e.g Segoe UI Black).

[allan.laal 0]

+1

[Doktor Oswaldo 901]

doktor.oswaldo wrote:

Yes that is correct. But the idea behind the US-Deadkey method is to not be dependent on language. So every possible accent is a dead key -> ” ‘ ^ ` <- you have to press all of them twice to get the char tipped. and “a gives you an ä and ‘a gives you an á and so on. This leads to a lot of dead keys which is especially horrible as a programmer. As far as I know this is the default way windows handles the US-International Input.

 

I prefer to have a special modifier (defaults to “Alt Gr” i think) which works exactly as a fn key but is standardized. “Alt Gr” + “Q” gives you an ä where “Alt Gr” + “Q” gives you Ä (Unfortunately “Alt Gr” + “a” is used by some useless French character ;-).

 

This may sound strange at the beginning, but it isn’t really different from pressing “Shift + 3” for a “#” once you got used to it.

Oh I agree with you, I just pointed out that for – I believe – many languages using Latin letters, the use of letters outside A-Z is primarily limited to a few national letters, that deserves dedicate one-stroke keys (like ÄÖÜẞ in German or ÆØÅ in Danish/Norwegian). But sure for languages heavily using accents/diacritics, that is not a possible approach, and here I too would prefer a modifier key over dead keys. But if a language uses many different accents/diacritics they will soon run out of modifier keys, so here the dead key could be a better approach….

 

That would have to be a lot of special characters. Since you have around 46 special chars per modifier-key.

And of course some national letters deserve a one-stroke key. And again I am all for that. But we are talking about two different things:

 

1. A dedicated layout for some languages. National letters should be one-stroke if used a lot (as close as possible to the pc layout).

 

2. A US-International Keyboard. This is worth a lot for users who use shortcuts heavily (vim users for example). Since a lot of shortcut are designed for the US-Layout it can be pain to use another layout (vim uses [ and ] a lot, it is a 3-key-combo on the swiss layout). Especially programmers use the US layout a lot. And here it is important to have a modifier key. If you need more than 46 special chars, you gonna switch the layout anyway. So still no reason for a dead key.

Of course this layout is worse than a national layout if you mostly type normal text! That's why I am yet unsure which I would prefer (my pc's have US-Layout, but i am not gonna use the phone that way).

 

P.S. I attached an Image so you see what it is like. As far as I can judge it works for German and Scandinavian countries.

 

 

[EskeRahn 5,399]

And of course some national letters deserve a one-stroke key. And again I am all for that. But we are talking about two different things:

 

I'm a bit confused now. Are you talking the FUNCTION of the keyboard, or the PRINT?

 

I expect there to be all kinds of symbols functionally accessible by the modifier key, no matter the print. And expect that we can choose from a variety of logical national layouts (and hopefully modify them our selves).

 

This thread was supposed to be on what should be printed on a QWERTZ keyboard, but is getting interwoven with the general thread on the keyboard layouts.

 

(Once the QWERTZ layout is locked down in a final layout, perhaps the two threads should be merged)

[Doktor Oswaldo 901]

doktor.oswaldo wrote:

And of course some national letters deserve a one-stroke key. And again I am all for that. But we are talking about two different things:

I’m a bit confused now. Are you talking the FUNCTION of the keyboard, or the PRINT?

 

I expect there to be all kinds of symbols functionally accessible by the modifier key, no matter the print. And expect that we can choose from a variety of logical national layouts (and hopefully modify them our selves).

 

This thread was supposed to be on what should be printed on a QWERTZ keyboard, but is getting interwoven with the general thread on the keyboard layouts.

 

(Once the QWERTZ layout is locked down in a final layout, perhaps the two threads should be merged)

 

Sorry it got really out of hand. My statement in this thread was just: "If you print national layout, keep it as close as possible to the pc layout". These whole modifier discussion took off from there.

 

I would love to see a QWERTZ print. Yes I am not quite sure if I would take that, but I am not the norm. Most people prefer the layout they know from the pc. And I care more about the success of this project than about the right print for me.

 

But yes I personally would love a US-International print on the keyboard. And I just wanted do explain people who are searching a similar thing, why this would be preferable.

 

Hope that got it a bit back to the thread.

[EskeRahn 5,399]

Sorry it got really out of hand. My statement in this thread was just: “If you print national layout, keep it as close as possible to the pc layout”. These whole modifier discussion took off from there.

 

I would love to see a QWERTZ print. Yes I am not quite sure if I would take that, but I am not the norm. Most people prefer the layout they know from the pc. And I care more about the success of this project than about the right print for me.

 

But yes I personally would love a US-International print on the keyboard. And I just wanted do explain people who are searching a similar thing, why this would be preferable.

 

Hope that got it a bit back to the thread.

 

Ah I see.

And yes, I agree, a standardized international print, could fit many.

And for those of us that prefer a national logical layout (no matter what is printed), The standard US-international could be a very good start, as the relatively few changes needed for the 'national oddities' would be all we will need to remember the placements of. (e.g. for German the Y/Z swap, and some functions moved behind a modifier key, to free the keys for ÄÖÜß)

 

So perhaps we should recommend that they should go for

* QWERTY US, Right-shifted A-Z

* QWERTY US-International

 

and then one or more of the following depending of the interest

* QWERTZ

* AZERTY

* Scandic

* .

* .

[Waxberry 638]

AltGr is a good suggestion but I feel a bit too much on current set-up:

 

- It has similar function as the "yellow arrow" key on Pro1. Remember the yellow arrow (function) are only used for typing symbols printed yellow, unlike on PC most symbols are out of alphabet keys and use "shift" as modifier. Therefore regarding functional AltGr on Pro1 (If that exists) is the same as yellow arrow. (Only change a colour maybe)

- Adding AltGr will need to remove one of the right Ctrl or Function keys. which will causing other issue.

- The symbols used with AltGr on PC are mainly rarely used ones.

- Ultimately this device is a thumb type one, it different from a PC keyboard for it's size, printing etc.

 

Therefore.......

How about the layout below? :)

 

Once confirmed I will share a pdf file.

 

[attachment file=12373]

[EskeRahn 5,399]

– The symbols used with AltGr on PC are mainly rarely used ones.

 

That may go for US/UK layout, but certainly not for national keyboards. The AltGr is the way to access the stuff moved away to free the national letter keys... e.g. brackets and braces moved to AltGr 7-0, and AltGr and key left of Z to get backslash.

Also access to €@£$ and the tilde as an accent are all through AltGr.

 

But that said it of course does not matter if the key is labelled as a yellow arrow or the (odd) "AltGr"

[TeZtdevice 262]

 

Great tweet :-)

[Joakim 32]

How about the layout below? :)

As a Nordic writer, I would be fine with this layout. Some special buttons in weird places (and I would rather have z and y swapped), but I would take this keyboard over standard qwerty any day. (Though some of our Nordic brothers would probably like å/Å to be found somewhere.)

 

But as said, keyboard with standard qwerty is pretty much a no-go for me. With this, I could pretty much type normally.

 

 

[raphaelcno 21]

Here is a layout that is closer to the German desktop layout:

 

[attachment file=QWERTZ-20190409 - 2019-04-10_RCa.png]

 

 

[Waxberry 638]

So far the feedbacks are:

 

- Re-arrange the symbols (similar to above post)

- Translating the Ctrl keys and change shift into symbol

- Correct the mis-placed "anchor"

 

All great suggestions

[EskeRahn 5,399]

Here is a layout that is closer to the German desktop layout:

 

<span class="image-overlay overlay-type-image" style="left: -5px; top: 0px; overflow: hidden; display: block; height: 171px; width: 746px;"><span class="image-overlay-inside"></span></span>

 

Very good suggestion, especially a nice idea with braces and bracket (and others) close® to their usual pc-positions.

A few of the ones in the second lowest row ">", ";", ":" and "_" I believe should be moved left on the keys to SHIFT position and not AltGr/YellowArrow position

[Waxberry 638]

Re-arrangement is on the way!!

[EskeRahn 5,399]

Very good suggestion, especially a nice idea with braces and bracket (and others) close® to their usual pc-positions.

 

A few of the ones in the second lowest row “>”, “;”, “:” and “_” I believe should be moved left on the keys to SHIFT position and not AltGr/YellowArrow position

 

actually we could get even closer if the values on the number rows also moves to SHIFT, somewhat like here from this

(with the blue printed in yellow, and perhaps moved up)

[EskeRahn 5,399]

e.g. like this rough sketch for the 7-key

[Waxberry 638]

EskeRahn wrote:

Very good suggestion, especially a nice idea with braces and bracket (and others) close® to their usual pc-positions.

 

A few of the ones in the second lowest row “>”, “;”, “:” and “_” I believe should be moved left on the keys to SHIFT position and not AltGr/YellowArrow position

actually we could get even closer if the values on the number rows also moves to SHIFT, somewhat like here from this

 

 

The initial idea of getting rid of a separate AltGr (like removing shift + key to get symbol on numbers) is to avoid printing 3 symbols on a tiny key. (Like number 1-0) otherwise will look quite a mess... But I have to say that might only be the case for English as they get much less symbols? :)

[raphaelcno 21]

A few of the ones in the second lowest row “>”, “;”, “:” and “_” I believe should be moved left on the keys to SHIFT position and not AltGr/YellowArrow position

Yes, it would be even closer to a normal keyboard.

But in that case, it's important that when the user activates Caps Lock, then the main symbol on the key is taken into account, not the second symbol. For instance, if Caps Lock is activated and you type ".", the screen must show ".", not ":".

 

[EskeRahn 5,399]

But in that case, it’s important that when the user activates Caps Lock, then the main symbol on the key is taken into account, not the second symbol. For instance, if Caps Lock is activated and you type “.”, the screen must show “.”, not “:”.

 

Indeed yes, important point.

A Caps-lock, not a Shift-lock like old typewriters. :-)

[EskeRahn 5,399]

The initial idea of getting rid of a separate AltGr (like removing shift + key to get symbol on numbers) is to avoid printing 3 symbols on a tiny key. (Like number 1-0) otherwise will look quite a mess… But I have to say that might only be the case for English as they get much less symbols? :)

 

I believe that can be more or less achieved by moving the yellow print down (like the sketch of the 7 above)

[Waxberry 638]

How about this one?

 

[attachment file=12456]

 

 

[Waxberry 638]

Waxberry wrote:

The initial idea of getting rid of a separate AltGr (like removing shift + key to get symbol on numbers) is to avoid printing 3 symbols on a tiny key. (Like number 1-0) otherwise will look quite a mess… But I have to say that might only be the case for English as they get much less symbols? :)

I believe that can be more or less achieved by moving the yellow print down (like the sketch of the 7 above)

 

But as the number keys are smaller, printing 3 symbols on it over complicates the content and make a mess. The only difference is only getting some extra symbols but there is enough space for AltGr symbols. The task is not really replicating a PC completely. :)