F(x)tec on Verizon?

[Polaris 423]

1 hour ago, sdx said:

With the risk of heading slightly in an off-topic direction.. So I'm european and grew up with GSM since the early 90's. Here, your SIM card would work in any phone, at all times, unless the phone you inserted the SIM card in was carrier locked. Hence my honest question, out of sheer curiosity:

Why do you accept a carrier to require device activation, that then prevents you from just swapping your SIM into another device? How can that be acceptable? Why would you even consider paying even one cent to such a carrier? Is it because it's your one and only option or what? If yes, how come no-one competes with Verizon in those areas? No market demand? FYI, I think Verizon is like the ONLY carrier WORLD-WIDE that does this. And I'm amazed that they still seem to get away with it without getting boycotted by their (hopefully potential) user base.

Verizon is a US CDMA carrier.  They only use SIM cards for their 4G LTE network as they were forced into it by the standard.  The SIM card isn't a typical SIM card like what you are used to, it has very little subscriber data.  They use the phone's IMEI (and MEID, which is typically the same as the IMEI minus the check digit) for device activation and all CDMA calls (2G voice, 3G Voice, and 3G data).  The SIM is only for data over their LTE network.  If it's a VoLTE phone (and the SIM is compatible, and activated for use on the mule if used) then that should also work for voice calls (assuming the data works).  As told to me by a Verizon engineer, they would have preferred to not use SIM cards at all, but as I said, were forced into it by signing into the LTE standard.  I guess this was better than them having their own 4G standard, but here in America it's different than in Europe where LTE is much more standardized.  Here two of the big four carriers are time division duplex (AT&T and T-Mobile), and the other two are frequency division duplex (Verizon and Sprint).

As for why anyone would want to use them, there's a bunch of reasons, but one I see all the time (and affects me) is that their CDMA network is very mature and provides very good signal in all sorts of nooks and crannies.  I live in the hills and there are four CDMA towers but one LTE tower nearby.  Thus, LTE is essentially non-existent here, but CDMA voice and data is almost everywhere in these hills.  Depending on where in the hills one is located, he/she might not always get data, but you can always place/receive voice calls.  If we had to currently reply only on LTE data only (with VoLTE voice, as the LTE standard is only data) there would be no signal for miles.

 

[sdx 45]

Ok, so it's all about coverage. So AT&T or T-mobile isn't even close when it comes to UMTS or GSM coverage, compared to Verizons CDMA? If they are, why choose CDMA? Is a minor coverage difference really worth it compared to supporting a network that doesn't support the global standards and locks you in with specific phones and/or prevents you to use a phone of your choice? If it's worth it, why even consider getting a Pro1? 🙂

Regarding VoLTE, it's probably only essential for Verizon, as the normal procedure is to place calls via UMTS and then you have GSM call hand-over if you lose your UMTS coverage. Does Verizon support call hand-over between VoLTE and CDMA?

 

[Craig 1,435]

3 hours ago, sdx said:

Why do you accept a carrier to require device activation, that then prevents you from just swapping your SIM into another device?

 

A. Both Verizon & Sprint use CDMA for 2G/3G.  This doesnt' even require sim card.   In the US we started with AMPS (first generation, "1G"), then when digital came around (2G) we had two choices of technology, CDMA & GSM - what did you have for 1G and 2G? ( 0 choices for analog and 1 choice for digital I'm guessing).  Regardless, sim cards weren't needed until AT&T and T-Mobile decided to go GSM .  The other two carriers, sprint & verizon, chose another technology.  Until 4G LTE came around, which uses SIM cards, Sprint/Verizon didn't care about SIM cards, and even now, if you move simcards from them into another phone, they only get LTE, no 2G/3G from a sim card if yer on a cdma provide, it only works on your own phone by MEID not SIM!.

B.  People choose with their wallet.  Sprint, especially thru resllers (MVNO) is cheaper.

C. Verizon has the best voice coverage voice in America (using 2G CDMA.

D. Some people just stick with the provider they're used to.  i.e. been using Sprint for 20+ years, why change now?

SIM cards only work for GSM & LTE.  So no CDMA.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Craig

[EskeRahn 5,460]

5 hours ago, sdx said:

Why do you accept a carrier to require device activation, that then prevents you from just swapping your SIM into another device? How can that be acceptable? Why would you even consider paying even one cent to such a carrier? Is it because it's your one and only option or what? If yes, how come no-one competes with Verizon in those areas? No market demand? FYI, I think Verizon is like the ONLY carrier WORLD-WIDE that does this. And I'm amazed that they still seem to get away with it without getting boycotted by their (hopefully potential) user base.

Though this from our perspective sounds silly at first, remember that they before 4G did not use SIM, so locking to the IMEI, is simply the way to know what contract a device is to be billed at, So not as dubious as it sounds. As long as your are able to transfer the IMEI to another contract, it is in principle the same as we do transferring the SIM.

In Europe we also see subsidized devices locked to a carrier for a certain period - so that is quite similar.

...And as they have to accept a specific device on their net, they have less issues with things not conforming, as they can simply reject device models that does not.

[Polaris 423]

2 hours ago, sdx said:

Ok, so it's all about coverage. So AT&T or T-mobile isn't even close when it comes to UMTS or GSM coverage, compared to Verizons CDMA? If they are, why choose CDMA? Is a minor coverage difference really worth it compared to supporting a network that doesn't support the global standards and locks you in with specific phones and/or prevents you to use a phone of your choice? If it's worth it, why even consider getting a Pro1? 🙂

Regarding VoLTE, it's probably only essential for Verizon, as the normal procedure is to place calls via UMTS and then you have GSM call hand-over if you lose your UMTS coverage. Does Verizon support call hand-over between VoLTE and CDMA?

 

There are a handful of reasons why I like Verizon better than the other carriers, I was just listing the one which I believe is why most prefer the carrier.  Personally, I've always like the CDMA technology better than the TDMA (GSM) technology, and have also found that in weak signal areas the CDMA signals seem to propagate further and allow calls to be placed from much greater distances.  My experience isn't just a single location in the hills, or whatever, nope.  I've tested it in numerous (weak signal) locations in across many different states here in the US.

Why get a PRO1?  Good question.  For me it's three reasons: (1) All the carriers are (sadly) switching to packet based data for voice calls on their networks (for now it'll be VoLTE).  So the wonderful attributes of CDMA voice (& SMS) will be gone by January 2021 (if Verizon keeps to their current schedule -they have already delayed it a year due to a ton of issues that arose with the idea turning off their CDMA network this month).  (2) I'm so addicted to a physical landscape keyboard phone (I have only used physical landscape keyboard smart phones, and even most of my non-smart ones before that had physical landscape keyboards), that I'll make the switch (since I'm going to lose CDMA in a year anyway) and sign up with AT&T if it means that I can use the Pro1.  (3) I'm also hoping that Verizon will wake up and realize that the Pro1 isn't anything to be feared, and allow activation on their network.  This might take some nudging by F(x)tec, but it's possible that someday the phone will be able to be used on their network.

As for VoLTE, it's not only Verizon!  ALL the carriers here in the US will only be placing voice calls via packet data (for now VoLTE).  The slowest one to make the transition is Sprint, but they are all going that route.  In just a year or two, all 'cellular' mobile voice calls will be packet data and not circuit switched through a PSTN gateway anymore.  As for handoffs, no there isn't a way to handoff a CDMA call to VoLTE as it would require a very large amount of equipment.  Again, CDMA is going away altogether, so even if feasible, it wouldn't make any sense.  There isn't even a way to handoff CDMA 2000 EV-DO data to LTE (or vice versa) these days, due to how data is routed on their backbones.  For awhile Verizon implemented, and tested, an EV-DO revision that supported eHRPD which allowed handoffs between EV-DO and LTE (which means for data only) due to how the eHRPD got its IP address from, and made data connections to, LTE gateways instead of through a particular site's mobile switching center.  In my experience it worked well; however, roll out was very limited and not worth implementing nationwide since CDMA will be gone soon anyway.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Polaris

[Polaris 423]

2 hours ago, Craig said:

C. Verizon has the best voice coverage voice in America (using 2G CDMA.

ABSOLUTELY, without a doubt!

 

15 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

Though this from our perspective sounds silly at first, remember that they before 4G did not use SIM, so locking to the IMEI, is simply the way to know what contract a device is to be billed at, So not as dubious as it sounds. As long as your are able to transfer the IMEI to another contract, it is in principle the same as we do transferring the SIM.

Yes, exactly, well stated.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Polaris

[Hook 3,020]

On 12/12/2019 at 9:03 PM, JoseJX said:

I'm on a Verizon MVNO. I tried just moving my already activated SIM from my Z2 Play to the Pro1. I was able to get data working by copying the APN settings from my Z2 Play, but I haven't been able to get calls or texts to work. I know my MVNO (Total Wireless) should support VoLTE, but I'm not sure if it's enabled on my account. I'm looking into it now.

Edit:

I tried turning on VoLTE through the *#*#4636#*#* Menu, but it rejects calls that way. It appears that I need to get a new SIM and re-activate the old phone because the old SIM I'm using doesn't support VoLTE. I'm going to try buying a new SIM this weekend and activating that on my Z2 Play. Once I have VoLTE working, I'll try transferring it into the Pro1 again and let you know how it goes.

Do let us know if this works, because that will indicate that *both* a VoLTE and a *new* sim may be required, because, when I checked I discovered my Moto G6 with the old Verizon SIM did have VoLTE enabled (I typed the sequence above into my dialer And the menu confirmed the VoLTE switches were on), yet the SIM did not work in the Pro 1.

[sdx 45]

6 hours ago, Craig said:

 

A. Both Verizon & Sprint use CDMA for 2G/3G.  This doesnt' even require sim card.   In the US we started with AMPS (first generation, "1G"), then when digital came around (2G) we had two choices of technology, CDMA & GSM - what did you have for 1G and 2G? ( 0 choices for analog and 1 choice for digital I'm guessing).  Regardless, sim cards weren't needed until AT&T and T-Mobile decided to go GSM .  The other two carriers, sprint & verizon, chose another technology.  Until 4G LTE came around, which uses SIM cards, Sprint/Verizon didn't care about SIM cards, and even now, if you move simcards from them into another phone, they only get LTE, no 2G/3G from a sim card if yer on a cdma provide, it only works on your own phone by MEID not SIM!.

B.  People choose with their wallet.  Sprint, especially thru resllers (MVNO) is cheaper.

C. Verizon has the best voice coverage voice in America (using 2G CDMA.

D. Some people just stick with the provider they're used to.  i.e. been using Sprint for 20+ years, why change now?

SIM cards only work for GSM & LTE.  So no CDMA.

Thanks Craig and Polaris for the comrehensive answers! 

 

Pre-GSM (which was only avaibale after 1992-3 or so for the general public) we had our orwn nordic standard, NMT (1G), which was analog. SIM-cards were introduced as part of the GSM standard. That network lived long for similar reasons as Verizons CDMA, since signal propagation was amazing. More infor the interested/gess (like me): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Mobile_Telephone

[Polaris 423]

2 hours ago, Hook said:

Do let us know if this works, because that will indicate that *both* a VoLTE and a *new* sim may be required, because, when I checked I discovered my Moto G6 with the old Verizon SIM did have VoLTE enabled (I typed the sequence above into my dialer And the menu confirmed the VoLTE switches were on), yet the SIM did not work in the Pro 1.

It will definitely be the case that VoLTE will be required (and most often a new SIM too).  This is because Verizon won't allow you to activate a new SIM without the phone being VoLTE, but also, and more importantly, because the LTE spec doesn't cover voice calls.  When you are using your Moto G6 to place voice calls (and send SMS texts) through their network, they are actually using the CDMA system.  Many people are unaware of this because the phone lights up as LTE or 4G and they think the voice call is using LTE, but it's not (LTE is only for data).  So you'll need to make certain the mule is a VoLTE phone, and that you can place VoLTE calls before swapping the SIM card into the Pro1.  If the mule phone can't place VoLTE calls there's not much, if any, chance that the Pro1 will then be able to do so using the same SIM card.

I apologize that I wasn't very clear in my original posting about this fact.  I did say that it needed to be a VoLTE phone, and that the voice and data should be tested and working before the swap.  However, that's confusing because by voice I meant voice over LTE and not voice on the CDMA system.  I'll go back to edit my post to be more clear.  It might even be helpful to change the mule phone's settings to LTE only.  If you can then place calls, send SMSs texts, MMS messages, and have full internet services (all strictly using only LTE) then, and only then, will you be ready to swap the (fresh) SIM card.

 

Edit: I can't edit my original message as I indicated I would do (above), but to clarify again here... Previously I said " Make sure all the services are working (voice, text, data), before swapping the SIM card into the Pro1."  This should have said: Make sure all the services (voice, text, data) are working via LTE (to be certain it might be a good idea to select LTE only as the preferred network type and then test the services), before swapping the SIM card into the Pro1.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Polaris

[Hook 3,020]

Holy crap!!! I got Verizon to work!!!!   Both I and Verizon missed a step.  I was confused because I had verified my G6 was provisioned for VoLTEand that it could send and receieve calls if I set the preferred network to LTE/GSM/UMTS (If I remember the acronyms right-- it was the choice that didn't have CDMA) and that things were that way before they swapped the SIM.  What I hadn't done was make sure VoLTE was turned on on the Pro1.  I put in the SIM and typed in the phone menu sequence: *#*#4636#*#*.  There are 3 provisioning switches on the Pro1.  I shrugged and flipped all three and restarted the phone.  I have 4g and I can make calls and text.  My online account still thinks I have a G6-- don't know if that will cause trouble later when the IMEI looks different.  So I may go by and see if I can make this official with the Verizon folks who were so helpful before.

The key thing to note is that the Pro 1 works with Verizon!

[ksal95 227]

50 minutes ago, Hook said:

Holy crap!!! I got Verizon to work!!!!   Both I and Verizon missed a step.  I was confused because I had verified my G6 was provisioned for VoLTEand that it could send and receieve calls if I set the preferred network to LTE/GSM/UMTS (If I remember the acronyms right-- it was the choice that didn't have CDMA) and that things were that way before they swapped the SIM.  What I hadn't done was make sure VoLTE was turned on on the Pro1.  I put in the SIM and typed in the phone menu sequence: *#*#4636#*#*.  There are 3 provisioning switches on the Pro1.  I shrugged and flipped all three and restarted the phone.  I have 4g and I can make calls and text.  My online account still thinks I have a G6-- don't know if that will cause trouble later when the IMEI looks different.  So I may go by and see if I can make this official with the Verizon folks who were so helpful before.

The key thing to note is that the Pro 1 works with Verizon!

Congrats Hook, you are the supreme champion!  🥳

[david 929]

1 hour ago, Hook said:

Holy crap!!! I got Verizon to work!!!!   Both I and Verizon missed a step.  I was confused because I had verified my G6 was provisioned for VoLTEand that it could send and receieve calls if I set the preferred network to LTE/GSM/UMTS (If I remember the acronyms right-- it was the choice that didn't have CDMA) and that things were that way before they swapped the SIM.  What I hadn't done was make sure VoLTE was turned on on the Pro1.  I put in the SIM and typed in the phone menu sequence: *#*#4636#*#*.  There are 3 provisioning switches on the Pro1.  I shrugged and flipped all three and restarted the phone.  I have 4g and I can make calls and text.  My online account still thinks I have a G6-- don't know if that will cause trouble later when the IMEI looks different.  So I may go by and see if I can make this official with the Verizon folks who were so helpful before.

So, to be clear, the only way to turn on VoLTE was through the special dialer code, not through some settings menu?

And to recap, this was an old SIM that was in a phone (the G6) that was activated for VoLTE usage originally?

1 hour ago, Hook said:

The key thing to note is that the Pro 1 works with Verizon!

Way to go!

[Hook 3,020]

15 minutes ago, david said:

So, to be clear, the only way to turn on VoLTE was through the special dialer code, not through some settings menu?

And to recap, this was an old SIM that was in a phone (the G6) that was activated for VoLTE usage originally?

Way to go!

Yes to both questions. 

[Hook 3,020]

This makes me wonder whether one could activate a new SIM in the Pro1 if you just turn on VoLTE provisioning first-- without using a MULE phone, I mean.

[silversolver 849]

4 hours ago, Hook said:

This makes me wonder whether one could activate a new SIM in the Pro1 if you just turn on VoLTE provisioning first-- without using a MULE phone, I mean.

Me too. I have attempted to update the compatibility list, and indeed have at the bottom, but the limited-time editing of the forum has locked me out of the top post. I am seeking Eske's help to update it. Great work on getting it to work! :)

[Polaris 423]

4 hours ago, Hook said:

This makes me wonder whether one could activate a new SIM in the Pro1 if you just turn on VoLTE provisioning first-- without using a MULE phone, I mean.

Glad you got it working!

Nope, won't work as asked above because the IMEI of the Pro1 is rejected by Verizon.  That's the biggest problem here!  If they would allow the device on their network, then we would have full access to the CDMA system and have full functionality for voice, SMS, MMS, data, etc. (albeit at 3G instead of 4G) even without LTE.

Also, is your Moto G6 a non-CDMA phone (not originally a Verizon model)?  It sounds like it by your preferred networking selection.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Polaris

[Hook 3,020]

5 minutes ago, Polaris said:

Nope, won't work because the IMEI of the Pro1 is rejected by Verizon.  That's the biggest problem here!  If they would allow the device on their network, then we would have full access to the CDMA system andhave full functionality for voice, SMS, MMS, data, etc. (albeit at 3G instead of 4G)!

No, actually not.  I took my Pro1 in to Verizon and asked if there would be a problem because the Pro 1 had a different IMEI than the phone the SIM had been in.  They said no problem.  If the phone works on the network, It's fine. Nothing to worry about. That makes me thing the IMEI is not an issue.

I think the problem was because CDMA cares about the IMEI, but not LTE/VoLTE.

[Polaris 423]

1 minute ago, Hook said:

No, actually not.  I took my Pro1 in to Verizon and asked if there would be a problem because the Pro 1 had a different IMEI than the phone the SIM had been in.  They said no problem.  If the phone works on the network, It's fine. Nothing to worry about. That makes me thing the IMEI is not an issue.

I think the problem was because CDMA cares about the IMEI, but not LTE/VoLTE.

I think we may be talking about two different things...?  I thought what you were asking is if you can just turn on all the VoLTE provisioning flags in the Pro1, pop in a fresh Verizon SIM, and then activate it (online or at their store).  Is this correct?  If so I still say no go because unless Verizon sees a device (in this case the Pro1) as compatible and accepted for their network they won't allow it to be activated.  How do they do this, by using the IMEI, that's it.  So until Verizon officially okays the Pro1 none of us will be able to activate it directly (without the mule procedure).  You can check for yourself using the Verizon BYOP link and punch in your Pro1's IMEI.  If it's not accepted there then it won't activate, period.  I have a bunch of phones that I would love to use, but Verizon won't allow them on the network so the mule procedure is the only option, but it'll (nowadays) only work with another VoLTE phone).

This is why your account still shows the Pro1's SIM as being in a Moto G6!  At this time, there's no way to change that to the Pro1 because it's not an allowed device.

[Hook 3,020]

13 minutes ago, Polaris said:

I think we may be talking about two different things...?  I thought what you were asking is if you can just turn on all the VoLTE provisioning flags in the Pro1, pop in a fresh Verizon SIM, and then activate it (online or at their store).  Is this correct?  If so I still say no go because unless Verizon sees a device (in this case the Pro1) as compatible and accepted for their network they won't allow it to be activated.  How do they do this, by using the IMEI, that's it.  So until Verizon officially okays the Pro1 none of us will be able to activate it directly (without the mule procedure).  You can check for yourself using the Verizon BYOP link and punch in your Pro1's IMEI.  If it's not accepted there then it won't activate, period.  I have a bunch of phones that I would love to use, but Verizon won't allow them on the network so the mule procedure is the only option, but it'll (nowadays) only work with another VoLTE phone).

This is why your account still shows the Pro1's SIM as being in a Moto G6!  At this time, there's no way to change that to the Pro1 because it's not an allowed device.

Ah, now I understand.  Sorry, I'm a little slow sometimes.  🙂

[Polaris 423]

31 minutes ago, Hook said:

Ah, now I understand.  Sorry, I'm a little slow sometimes.  🙂

No worries, but we should be crystal clear here so someone else doesn't hit the same pitfall you did and think it can't be activated for LTE use.  Thus, to clarify...

If using a mule to activate a SIM for use in the Pro1.  You (meaning all of us who are interested in currently using Verizon) will need to activate a SIM then be 100% certain, as you are testing all the different services, that the mule is able to place VoLTE calls!  This might not be readily apparent (especially if you are calling someone who isn't using a HD voice service and device) because if the preferred network setting in the mule is set to anything other than only LTE, the mobile will place the voice call over CDMA (or even GSM/UMTS).  Thus, even if the call completes, it doesn't mean that it's an VoLTE call!  I said above, a couple of times, to be certain that you can place VoLTE calls, but, again, unless you are familiar with what's happening for a voice call you might not realize that it's not an actual VoLTE call.  The necessary provisioning, etc. will need to take place before a real VoLTE call can be placed.  Thus, to be 100% certain you have completed everything necessary, first switch the preferred network setting to "LTE" (the one with ONLY LTE on listed.  You should then have data (assuming the SIM was working at all), but will find out quickly whether you are placing actual VoLTE calls on the mule BEFORE transferring the SIM to the Pro1.

[silversolver 849]

13 minutes ago, Polaris said:

No worries, but we should be crystal clear here so someone else doesn't hit the same pitfall you did and think it can't be activated for LTE use.  Thus, to clarify...

If using a mule to activate a SIM for use in the Pro1.  You (meaning all of us who are interested in currently using Verizon) will need to activate a SIM then be 100% certain, as you are testing all the different services, that the mule is able to place VoLTE calls!  This might not be readily apparent (especially if you are calling someone who isn't using a HD voice service and device) because if the preferred network setting in the mule is set to anything other than only LTE, the mobile will place the voice call over CDMA (or even GSM/UMTS).  Thus, even if the call completes, it doesn't mean that it's an VoLTE call!  I said above, a couple of times, to be certain that you can place VoLTE calls, but, again, unless you are familiar with what's happening for a voice call you might not realize that it's not an actual VoLTE call.  The necessary provisioning, etc. will need to take place before a real VoLTE call can be placed.  Thus, to be 100% certain you have completed everything necessary, first switch the preferred network setting to "LTE" (the one with ONLY LTE on listed.  You should then have data (assuming the SIM was working at all), but will find out quickly whether you are placing actual VoLTE calls on the mule BEFORE transferring the SIM to the Pro1.

"Let me be clear...." oh wait, that was someone else.....LOL

[Polaris 423]

5 hours ago, silversolver said:

"Let me be clear...." oh wait, that was someone else.....LOL

Oh gosh yes, and I'm not interested in any association! LOL

[Flounder 2]

Alright, so after reading all of this.  I'm still fairly confused.  I currently have a galaxy S8 on Verizon and want to just change phones to the Pro1.  I can't just transfer the SIM card correct? So I have to buy another device and activate it, then use the new device's SIM card?  So I'll have to buy an extra phone to get this done?  Is the right?

[david 929]

22 minutes ago, Flounder said:

Alright, so after reading all of this.  I'm still fairly confused.  I currently have a galaxy S8 on Verizon and want to just change phones to the Pro1.  I can't just transfer the SIM card correct? So I have to buy another device and activate it, then use the new device's SIM card?  So I'll have to buy an extra phone to get this done?  Is the right?

You can try it with the existing SIM, but make sure the S8 is able to make VoLTE calls on Verizon first (video link below).  If you are able to make VoLTE calls with the S8, on that SIM, then you might be able to just put the SIM in the Pro1 and dial *#*#4636#*#* and enable all 3 options and reboot the phone.  If it works, you should get a 4G signal on the phone after rebooting.

 

[Craig 1,435]

1 hour ago, Flounder said:

Alright, so after reading all of this.  I'm still fairly confused.

What David said is right - with the caveat that you'll ONLY be getting LTE service and using voice over LTE.  Although Pro¹ has the radios for it, Verizon isn't letting Pro¹ on their CDMA network at this time, which is tied to the device (MEID/IMEI), not the simcard.  LTE is tied to the simcard.   So Verizon won't activate a Pro¹, but if you have a working SIM card from a device they did activate, that supports voice over LTE, then you can move that simcard to pro1 and use it LTE only. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Craig