Pro1 and Pro1 X design change to use Snapdragon 662, no new devices before August 2021

[elain1 6]

4 hours ago, FlyingAntero said:

It had probably 4Gb RAM and 64Gb storage even so that Samsung datasheet says that the RAM chip is 32Gb. However, iFixit says that it is 4Gb (link) and you can find Aliexpress listing saying 4Gb (link). Maybe it is "up to 32Gb" or something like that.

• Storage: Samsung KLUCG4J1ED-B0C1, 64Gb UFS 2.1
• RAM: Samsung K3UH5H50MM-NGCJ, 32Gb LOW POWER DDR4X

bits bytes...

32Gb is 4GB

[FlyingAntero 871]

34 minutes ago, elain1 said:

bits bytes...

32Gb is 4GB

Thanks! I am always mixing GB vs Gb thing since in Finnish we have:

- gigabyte = gigatavu (Gt)

- gigabit = gigabitti (Gb)

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by FlyingAntero

[namikiri 3]

Hello. Is there any chance to get a refund? I've contacted the Fxtec team via IGG on February 11 but still got no response.

 

As I said in that message, I'm using a BB Priv and its storage pisses me off more and more when it comes to modern™ apps that intensively use the storage, the phone just overheats and throttles. Pro1 (X) was my hope and I've backed it but then they suddenly say "oh no we're out of CPUs so suffer with your current phone a bit more".

I'm aware that Fxtec could be in a trouble but I still want the money back to buy something else as a replacement for my current BB Priv.

[_DW_ 628]

1 hour ago, namikiri said:

Hello. Is there any chance to get a refund? I've contacted the Fxtec team via IGG on February 11 but still got no response.

 

As I said in that message, I'm using a BB Priv and its storage pisses me off more and more when it comes to modern™ apps that intensively use the storage, the phone just overheats and throttles. Pro1 (X) was my hope and I've backed it but then they suddenly say "oh no we're out of CPUs so suffer with your current phone a bit more".

I'm aware that Fxtec could be in a trouble but I still want the money back to buy something else as a replacement for my current BB Priv.

This is a user to user forum.  You need to contact the via igg or the support channels. 

[Robert 12]

On 2/14/2021 at 4:47 PM, Slion said:

I'm guessing people who already have a Pro1 voted wait and those who don't voted deliver sooner.

That's not true :) 
I Ordered a Pro1 when it was completely new and canceled my order as it was delayed for more than 6 months already. (year or two ago)
I got my full refund - Thank you FxTec! You are realy a great company and trustful, but please work on your communication skills!

Now I saw a new RAM upgraded version for an realy attractive price and I thought, now I'll wait, no mather how long it will take.

But I must say, I'm realy thinking of askung for refund, because the missing hardwase-security features are really painfull for me. Especially because my daily business is to work with sensitive data. 😞

[flx 42]

10 hours ago, namikiri said:

Hello. Is there any chance to get a refund? I've contacted the Fxtec team via IGG on February 11 but still got no response.

 

As I said in that message, I'm using a BB Priv and its storage pisses me off more and more when it comes to modern™ apps that intensively use the storage, the phone just overheats and throttles. Pro1 (X) was my hope and I've backed it but then they suddenly say "oh no we're out of CPUs so suffer with your current phone a bit more".

I'm aware that Fxtec could be in a trouble but I still want the money back to buy something else as a replacement for my current BB Priv.

I'm in the same boat, I have to chose something else.

 

Still no answer for me either but before that you had to wait 1 month for an answer so I'm not hoping for better now... if someone got an answer from fxtec since the last announcement, let yourself know.

[claude0001 1,341]

10 hours ago, namikiri said:

Hello. Is there any chance to get a refund? I've contacted the Fxtec team via IGG on February 11 but still got no response.

As you read from others, you will not get any official reponse on this forum.

IGG rules (as far as I understand them) allow Fxtec to either choose to refund backers or keep the money nontheless in the case their project (the Pro1-X) fails.

Now, they seem pretty serious about not letting the project fail, but modifiy the Pro1-X such that it can still be delivered. So (again, as far as I understand those things) the "project" (the Pro1-X) is still alive and well, and refunding (all) backers is not even in question.

As I have previously stated, I believe the Pro1-X will be the best keyboard phone on the market in spite of a less powerful SoC compared to the original Pro1. So, personally, I advise you to just wait for your device.

If you think the design change is such that you cannot support the project any longer, ask Fxtec to please (!) undo your backing of the project by sending your money back. I doubt that you can legally enforce a refund.

Edited February 19, 2021 by claude0001

[flx 42]

No, you all have to stop supporting this IGG bullshit.

IGG can write whatever they want (like that we can cancel from them up to 2 weeks after the end of the campaign 🙄) it does not override EU laws.

The only way for fxtec to not fulfill their side of the contract or refunding is to file for bankruptcy of the company.

And with all of that we are all protected by EU consumer laws on remote orders. So even the 14 days return on reception applies if you don't like what you receive.

On IGG we pay a precise amount of money in exchange of a service or product with a delivery date. It's the definition of a contract like any other.

It is not a donation.

It is not an investment. Actually investment on companies is highly regulated in Europe so you would have explicitly knew if you had (and have some shares to benefit from and potentially a vote right). 

 

Oh and fxtec pays VAT on our purchases, because they are purchases exactly like the ones in a store.

[lzb 43]

I really hope we get Android 10, but I fear I'll be disappointed. The Pro1 is already two versions out of date, and the Android 12 dev preview just dropped, so that's on the way soon. I use stock Android because I am a Google Pay user and that won't work on Lineage etc. Never mind the fact that the Pro1 was advertised as getting Android 10, so not getting it would be yet another ding against the company as discussed elsewhere. On the other hand, if they manage to skip 10 altogether and give us 11, that would make up for a lot 🙂

Edited February 19, 2021 by lzb

[claude0001 1,341]

18 minutes ago, flx said:

And with all of that we are all protected by EU consumer laws on remote orders. So even the 14 days return on reception applies if you don't like what you receive.

On IGG we pay a precise amount of money in exchange of a service or product with a delivery date. It's the definition of a contract like any other.

I am no lawyer (and am happy about that). However, what you write is the opposite of what IGG promises to their partners. They explicitly state that backer's money does not need to be refunded in case of a project failure.

Also, despite of being a proud European myself, I do not see how (or why) EU law should be applicable to a California company.

Edited February 19, 2021 by claude0001

[flx 42]

Actually EU law applies to any website that sells and delivers directly to EU consumers.

Here the selling company is (was ?) also a EU company so the EU laws applies to them also by this way. 

 

The platform in the middle used to sell change nothing. Otherwise Amazon would not have to respect EU laws when they sell here (and they do), that would be crazy.

Or for another example, if I, French, create my eshop on Squarespace (American platform I believe) to sell things to other Frenchs. It's obvious I can't avoid EU/French laws only because I used an oversee website...

Here we have fxtec (EU/English company) selling products to EU consumers (and also non-EU off-course), what tool was used in the middle to do this sell does not matter at this point.

Edited February 19, 2021 by flx

[claude0001 1,341]

22 minutes ago, flx said:

Here we have fxtec (EU/English company) selling products to EU consumers (and also non-EU off-course), what tool was used in the middle to do this sell does not matter at this point.

Again, being no lawyer, I doubt this.

Backers have a well-defined contract with IGG, see here.

IGG is a US company, so its contracts with customers are bound to US law only. IGG may choose to cooperate with international partners on a project, including partners from the EU or Britain (Fxtec). However that does not mean that backers have any direct contract with that partner.

I think the picture that Fxtec is "selling" the Pro1-X through IGG is wrong. They gather money though IGG in the hope that it will be sufficient to actually build the phone and then (and only then) deliver it. Providing that money is the essence of your contract with IGG (not with Fxtec).

Edited February 19, 2021 by claude0001

[flx 42]

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/shopping-consumer-rights/index_en.htm#bought-outside-eu

"EU consumer rules cover goods and services that have been bought in the EU. However, if you buy from a non-EU online trader who has specifically targeted EU consumers you should also be covered by EU rules (...)"

 

And on IGG terms you have : 

"3. Campaign Owner Obligations

(...)

e. If you have received the Contributions from your Campaign, issue refunds to Contributors if you cannot deliver Perks .

f. Comply with Laws. Comply with all applicable laws and regulations in the use of Contributions and delivery of Perks."

 

Also : 

"Please remember that as a Campaign Owner, you are solely responsible for fulfilling the obligations of your Campaign and delivering Perks. If you are unable to perform on this, or any of your other legal obligations, you may be subject to legal action by Contributors."

And actually those terms mostly states that IGG takes no responsibility neither towards the seller or the users. They definitely put themself as an intermediary platform (a tool) but nothing else.

[flx 42]

I can go again with my example : 

I want to sell furnitures online to French consumers, being myself based in France.

1) I make my own eshop website hosted on a French server.

2) I make my own eshop websote hosted on an American server.

3) I sell them on Etsy.

4) I sell them on IGG but I say "no no it's not a sell it's an investment"

 

All 4 of theses make no difference and it's very fortunate otherwise it would be far to easy to not respect any consumer/local law in any country in this world...

[claude0001 1,341]

From indiegogo.com:

"By contributing to a Campaign, Contributors are supporting an idea, project, or cause they care about and want to help make happen. Like anyone getting in on an early-stage project, Contributors accept the risk that the Campaign may experience changes, delays, and unforeseen challenges, or that a Campaign, and its Perks, might not come to fruition."

That seems pretty clear and honest to me. What are you complaining about?

[flx 42]

That does not say the that the vendor as no responsibility, it only says that there are risks. Responsibility and risk are 2 very different things.

 

I'm complaining because I see here people throwing their rights and the ones of everyone to the toilet in saying that we have none because we would be "investors". Even fxtec is not claiming that and never said something about not respecting EU consumer laws.

[claude0001 1,341]

I really believe that this kind of discussion is fruitless. If we agree on the common goal of keeping keyboard phones alive, there is no choice but to back the (few) companies like Fxtec. However, there being no choice sadly does not mean there is a guarantee of success: not every transfer of money is a purchase whose object can be claimed.

Think of it like this: If I donate money to WWF to help them save the Amur leopard, and then the cat goes extinct nonetheless, would I get refunded? No, of course, I wouldn't. And I still donate every year.

Edited February 19, 2021 by claude0001

[flx 42]

A donation is not the same as a purchase.

And I'm sorry but you can't claim "we agree on the common goal of keeping keyboard phones alive" for everyone. Each of everyone backed this project for its own personal reason and that why there are laws and not "common goals" to live in society.

 

I just did a few search and off-course we are not the first to discuss this point, some law professors even have published about it (and made proposition for specific laws for crowdfunding).

https://kluwerlawonline.com/journalarticle/European+Review+of+Private+Law/28.3/ERPL2020004

Quote

Crowdfunding has become a popular and mainstream way of financing projects and businesses (..). Of the four types of crowdfunding that can be distinguished, this article focuses on reward-based crowdfunding. It will be argued that contracts concluded under a reward-based crowdfunding project within the EU will generally fall within the scope of several EU consumer rights regulations, including the Consumer Rights Directive. This article will focus on the contractual rights and obligations under this directive. As a reward-based crowdfunding project, apart from some exceptions, will have to comply with this directive, the crowdfunding platform and/or the crowdfunding initiator will have to comply with information and delivery requirements, of which especially the delivery requirement do not fit the nature of reward-based crowdfunding. Non-compliance may lead to consumers having the right to terminate, which may compromise the crowdfunding project, as it depends on the participation of the crowd. Possibly the biggest threat to reward-based crowdfunding is the right of withdrawal. Where the withdrawal period for services contract ends 14 days after the conclusion of the contract, with sales contract this period only ends 14 days after the delivery of the goods. 
 

 

https://blogs.nottingham.ac.uk/allconsuminginterests/2015/11/17/crowdfunding-and-the-consumer/

Quote

In order to assess whether backers have the protection of the Unfair Commercial Practices Directive, it is first necessary to decide whether one of the parties is a consumer. Consumers are defined in the Unfair Commercial Practices Directive as “individual[s] who in relation to a commercial practice is acting for purposes which are outside his business.” It appears that in most cases the backers will not be professional investors, and will therefore be consumers. These backers will see the project not as a investment, but as a potential pre-sale of something that has not yet been created. They should therefore be protected as consumers and not treated as investors.

 

[claude0001 1,341]

28 minutes ago, flx said:

Each of everyone backed this project for its own personal reason and that why there are laws and not "common goals" to live in society

I agree.

But the Pro1-X backers *chose* to invest in a crowdfunding campaign instead of ordering a phone through the normal Fxtec web shop. Doing so they -- according to IGG rules -- provided money to Fxtec and, to a certain degree at least, freed them from the obligation to finally deliver the product. That is investing in a "common goal".

That also direct FxTec orders are cancelled and transferred to Pro1-X's now is a different story. However IGG investors knew (or should have known) they took additional risks from the start.

Edited February 19, 2021 by claude0001

[flx 42]

3 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

But the Pro1-X backers *chose* to invest in a crowdfunding campaign instead of ordering a phone through the normal Fxtec web shop.

If an Azerty keyboard was available on the Pro1 I would have ordered directly on the website trusting the delivery date indicated, but that's a different story 🙂

 

Oh and I just checked, even on fxtec website they state "Pre-Order" on the button that redirect on IGG.

Really I think fxtec never claimed it was an investment, they never said to anyone that they would not apply the EU consumer laws and up to now they always did (even if slowly).

So why us, the community, should we tell each other "you should be happy if you get a refund because you are high-risk-angel-investor and they don't have to". That's not the law, that's not what fxtec claims.

 

A very different approach to that is to say to people "we (the community) need the maximum of you to stay to see this project completed and this company continue with new models in the future so please if you can don't ask a refund".

Here you talk to the values/goals of people, not of the law.

[Rob. S. 1,662]

15 hours ago, namikiri said:

Hello. Is there any chance to get a refund? I've contacted the Fxtec team via IGG on February 11 but still got no response.

For the IndieGogo Pro1 X, I don't think there is. I seem to remember there was a precedent already that was answered with no, this is IndieGogo and we don't refund, you can sell the device after you get it.

Which is the way IndieGogo campaigns usually go (after a short period of refunds being available through IndieGogo itself, if I understood that correctly).

I would advise people who try to argue that companies financing new products through IndieGogo would need to offer refunds according to European law if they ship to Europe to talk to someone who is well versed in European law, because they are clearly not. IndieGogo has worked like this for 12 years now and if there was even a slight chance to bind IndieGogo campaigners to that law someone would have already found out. Noone has, and there isn't.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Rob. S.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

2 hours ago, flx said:

"EU consumer rules cover goods and services that have been bought in the EU. However, if you buy from a non-EU online trader who has specifically targeted EU consumers you should also be covered by EU rules (...)"

Thank you for emphasizing the important word here: "bought" we do not buy anything on IGG we invest. That is the whole point of crowdfuning. It is no different from getting stocks or bonds in that aspect.
The difference is that with crowdfunding we expect a material reward of a product cheaper than it could be bought, versus normal financial investment were we home for an economical reward.

[flx 42]

Please read everything else that I have posted.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

Just now, flx said:

Please read everything else that I have posted.

Oh I did.

And to the VAT thing. Yes of course. If you got money back from an invest and used that to buy a product these products would also have VAT on them. The difference is that you are not ALSO taxed on how much the value of the product exceeds the value of the investment. So in that aspect we are better of in crowdfunding than with other investments

[EskeRahn 5,460]

...It actually raises an interesting question for a tax layer. If I take a €400 perk and get a product with a street price of €500, would I then be legally obliged to report the €100 as financial taxable income?

I never thought of that.