Pro1 and Pro1 X design change to use Snapdragon 662, no new devices before August 2021

[claude0001 1,271]

28 minutes ago, flx said:

Oh and yes I'm not a lawyer but as part of my Engineering training I've followed ITC laws courses and as parts of my jobs I regularly had to implement them (mostly GDPR but also some consumer laws). So yes I'm not an expert but please don't call me stupid.

And I have posted a lot of sources in my previous post with cases and analysis about Crowdfunding and consumer laws in Europe, I'm not just stating things out of my pocket.

I did not perceive that anyone was called stupid here.

@Rob. S. is right that keeping up the fantasy that all IGG backers could get a refund is not leading us anywhere.

Fxtec have stated that they paid the SoCs already in December. The same will be true for other components of the Pro1-X. I.e., the money from the backers has already gone up the chain of suppliers and Fxtec could not repay all backers even if they wanted so. Increasing pressure on Fxtec through massive refunding claims would simply lead to them needing to file bankruptcy -- with the result of everyone here getting neither their money nor their ordered phone ...

I repeat myself: Please try to cool down, everyone. 🙂

[EskeRahn 5,399]

3 hours ago, Rob. S. said:

How naïve and out of touch with reality can someone be?......

Though I agree with the ponits in you post please mind the language/insults!

[EskeRahn 5,399]

3 hours ago, flx said:

And yes shares can lose value but when you buy them they never promise you any return on investment.

And this is exactly the same thing here....  we put in some money and HOPE to get a higher value out.

At the same time this campaign was running last year you could also preorder a Pro1 on the FxTec webpage.

And the Preorder price was HIGHER, exactly because they here make a legal promise to deliver, and if they can not fulfil a preorder you will normally have a right to a refund, so they take all the risk.

The whole POINT of crowdfunding is that we as investors take (some of) the risk, and in return we hope to end up with a device cheaper than what the preorder price was. That is to get a higher value out than we put in.

 

[Doktor Oswaldo 901]

Well since this feels a bit like Fanboys defending, I think it is important to state at @PsyDucky that we all have been through this.
We all agree that communication is not the best, we all agree that it is hard to know anything for sure, since a lot of unofficial information pours in, while official is missing.

But in this case, they stated relatively clearly, what happened and why. Yeah there are some Information missing, like HDMI out. But you know what? I am pretty certain they don't know yet. They haven't redesigned the thing yet! Community asked if it will do HDMI out, so they asked their supplier and they said yes. Now the whole community has more questions about the HDMI out and they may have no idea. They may even asked their supplier again, but haven't got an answer yet. I guess they are not top priority.

What should they do? If you are supporting a project this small, this is one of the thing you have to live with. Even though it sucks.
But you know why it feels so strange? Because these are not marketing people. Instead of saying: "We have not yet specified the final design, we will soon be back with more information about our awesome product" they really try to answer questions.
And we are so training to that image of the perfect company, that we can't handle it. You probably think, well they should just tell us, if they don't know and I would agree. But it seems to be really hard for them, to decide what to tell us, and what will hurt the campaign. And tbh we don't know how that would influence the number of future backers either.

Furthermore we have no Idea about the structure of the company. There may be Investors or contracts limiting them in communication.

My point in the end is, yes this might not be ideal. But I think it is bound to happen in a small smartphone project, no matter what people are doing it. The only questions is, are you in a position to support a project in a broken market, or aren't you. This is a decision that anyone has to make for themselves and there isn't a right answer. For a lot of people this may be too much money to spend on an uncertain project. Some people may need a phone instantly. Some people may not have the nerves for that. But then this may be the wrong project for them. I just think it is really important to judge the project and especially the people behind it by difficult task they have taken on, not by apple or samsung standards. So in the end, it all may sound like we are blindly defending fxtec as fanboys. Well we aren't. They did a lot of mistakes in communication. I was always a big critic of that. But we have collected some information in all this years and we know a bit how broken and monopolistic the market is and we are just being realistic.


P.S:

11 hours ago, Hook said:

They said clearly they would update monthly.

This is a really good example of how they becoming better in communication! One clear update a month with complete information is way better then unofficial comments scattering around! This is something I wished for since years!

Edited March 4, 2021 by Doktor Oswaldo

[Doktor Oswaldo 901]

Breaking news: Crowdfunding is very questionable, high risk and a bad deal for the customer!

Well we know that since decades. It indeed is. Why we do it anyway? Well in most cases i don't know, people seem to be stupid.... In this case simply because it is a project that would not exist without us taking the risk. That we even reached the point we are now, is only possible because a lot of people here have invested even more money than you. We didn't even saw a pro1. There was none! We didn't knew how good the hinge would turn out. We didn't knew if it would be usable at all, or if it is even possible to produce.

That is what this is all about, investing in the concept of a hwkb phone. If you want to buy one, then you are wrong here. If you want a hwkb-landscape-slider as bad as I want one and you are okay to take the risk, this is the place to be. I don't even care what the law says, you knowingly agreed to that risk by investing on IGG. You just hoped everything will work out according to plan. Now you are pissed because it hasn't. You took a risk and want to chicken out because you were unlucky... It is like wanting the money back in the casino after losing it. That is not how it works.

If you can't handle loosing, don't gamble.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Doktor Oswaldo

[EskeRahn 5,399]

@Doktor Oswaldo I can not thank you enough for a well balanced post! I totally agree on all points.

I think that much of the commotion arises out of people not being able to

distinguish between making a pre-order and taking a crowd-funding perk.

Foreigners like me could start by usign a dictionary: Perk

Though IGG tries to scream out in large letters that perks aren't pre-orders, unfortunately the campaigns I've seen (including this one) are formulated in such an optimistic way as if it was a sure thing that we will end where they hope we will, and that we will get exactly what we perked for. But there are no guarantees or promises. It is their intention we see. And that is what we back, to share a common goal.

And I do not think that generally is because the campaigners are bad people. They are enthusiastic about their project and really believe that it will end as they expect. Exactly as FxTec with the Pro1X. But there are bumps on roads, and sometimes we need to lower the bar of expectations, if thing does not go as planned.

Sometime I wonder if people going to a football match where their favourites did not win, would go back to the ticket office and expect to get a refund?

[EskeRahn 5,399]

For those that wonders about the blow up of this thread, I merged the content of the parallel thread from here:

 

[lawliett 77]

I think the main issue is that while crowdfunding is NOT the same as a purchase, it FEELS like a regular purchase. 

https://wp.josh.com/2014/01/21/read-this-before-you-contribute-to-an-indiegogo-campaign/

The blog post lists some complaints about how IGG tries to make the experience of crowdfunding similar to that of shopping despite attempting to avoid the legal obligations of normal ecommerce sites.

So I'm sure plenty of people who are crowdfunding for the first time are easily swayed into thinking that they are guaranteed to receive a product. Now you can call them naive and foolish, but I don't think it's any different from casinos who use bright lights and alcohol and addictive slot machines to convince people to gamble away their money.

Also some people in the comments mentioned being able to successfully file a chargeback, but that was after the campaign had ended. But Fxtec isn't a scam, and as soon as I have the cash, I'll probably be buying some more Pro1X perks.

[Doktor Oswaldo 901]

16 hours ago, lawliett said:

I think the main issue is that while crowdfunding is NOT the same as a purchase, it FEELS like a regular purchase. 

https://wp.josh.com/2014/01/21/read-this-before-you-contribute-to-an-indiegogo-campaign/

The blog post lists some complaints about how IGG tries to make the experience of crowdfunding similar to that of shopping despite attempting to avoid the legal obligations of normal ecommerce sites.

So I'm sure plenty of people who are crowdfunding for the first time are easily swayed into thinking that they are guaranteed to receive a product. Now you can call them naive and foolish, but I don't think it's any different from casinos who use bright lights and alcohol and addictive slot machines to convince people to gamble away their money.

Also some people in the comments mentioned being able to successfully file a chargeback, but that was after the campaign had ended. But Fxtec isn't a scam, and as soon as I have the cash, I'll probably be buying some more Pro1X perks.

I completely agree. I don't think anyone here tries to defend IGG. I think the whole concept of Crowdfunding for perks is a really bad deal for the consumer. It probably should be regulated more.

So please be angry at IGG, but not at fxtec. And do not try to ruin them, call your local politician and complain about crowdfunding or whatever. But don't try to damage a company which is in my opinion in a position, where crowdfunding is not too unethical!

[DocMatHoc 0]

If the new chipset removes hdmi over usb-c then I’m out. Ordered the Ubuntu ports for the big screen experience, and that will be all over with a low power processor and no external screen. Anyone know details?

[DocMatHoc 0]

If the downgrade soc means no hdmi output from the usb-c port then its a very different machine they’re designing and selling. 
personally I came to this through XDA, whose motives I trust, and had to think long and hard as I have previously lost nearly £400 to the block watch some years ago. 
now if I’m being offered a low mid-range without Ubuntu touch external display and no guarantee of the other os’s, then if I ever get mine I’ll just be selling it straight away. 

[FlyingAntero 825]

33 minutes ago, DocMatHoc said:

If the downgrade soc means no hdmi output from the usb-c port then its a very different machine they’re designing and selling. 
personally I came to this through XDA, whose motives I trust, and had to think long and hard as I have previously lost nearly £400 to the block watch some years ago. 
now if I’m being offered a low mid-range without Ubuntu touch external display and no guarantee of the other os’s, then if I ever get mine I’ll just be selling it straight away. 

Fxtec has confirmed that you can use external display with Pro1-X on Ubuntu Touch even so that the chip has changed.

Edited March 6, 2021 by FlyingAntero

[VaZso 1,997]

Just reading the monthly update of PINE64 and although they seem to have found a solution, there is an interesting part inside which seems to a somewhat similar issue like F(x)tec had with SD835, except that it was the most special component of Pro1.

The following is a quote PINE64 wrote (source):

Quote

...
We had all our components (both discrete and key parts) ordered months in advance and the production floor reserved as well. In short, everything required to produce the next PinePhone batch was in place by the time we entered the Chinese New Year in February. At that time we couldn't have predicted that vendors would not hold up their end of the agreement. I’ll spare you the details, they aren’t particularly pleasant nor interesting, but it boils down to this: components we booked in advance were sold to other parties (presumably at a much higher price). We managed to source many of the components we lost, but we’re currently short of one discrete component (usually very easy to obtain) which is nowhere to be found.
...

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by VaZso

[_DW_ 628]

On 3/16/2021 at 1:16 AM, VaZso said:

Just reading the monthly update of PINE64 and although they seem to have found a solution, there is an interesting part inside which seems to a somewhat similar issue like F(x)tec had with SD835, except that it was the most special component of Pro1.

The following is a quote PINE64 wrote (source):

 

Yeah there is a general shortage of things when factories are closed for months and months these parts don't magically appear also they will side line anything that was just a small earner for bigger profit items.

[VaZso 1,997]

5 hours ago, _DW_ said:

Yeah there is a general shortage of things when factories are closed for months and months these parts don't magically appear also they will side line anything that was just a small earner for bigger profit items.

I have also ran into a similar issue.

One of the microcontrollers I use was unavailable in the factory (at PCB assembling company) and it was also unavailable at Farnell but I could order it from Mouser ...so I had to solder it by hand (TQFP-144 package).
Currently, it is available also at Farnell and Mouser, but another microcontroller is still unavailable till April or May (pending order).

Also there is a power-related IC I could only backorder (it was unavailable at PCBA company and at suppliers above), then it became unavailable again and currently there is a pending order which expected to come in the following months...

...these are examples.

I also had to choose replacement components for the PCB assembly - so another manufacturer of products (which are still available), etc...

So I know about parts shortage but one thing is what I write and another thing which was written by other sources.

...and not speaking about the general shortage of practically every infrared heat sensors since a year(!), I am expecting to receive my order in two months (that is an infrared sensor array)... but that sensor was also withheld by the USA because there was a generic idea of using them for COVID "identification", however, if someone has a fewer, then the virus is already actively working (and infects others) and the one should feel to be ill, so in that state it is clearly the lack of general responsibility against everyone else...

[Dean 6]

Well it's obvious that the FX group had No contingency plan to avoid the disaster that has befallen the Pro 1x! This is what happens when you trust unreliable sources like China. When this happened, my personal move was to obtain the SD 835 from cheap used phones that are plentiful now. Using the pre-owned chips is not the easy way, but we would have them "as advertised"! Warranties for the used chips could be extended & I for one would have my smartphone in-hand by now! The other obvious option to the chipset, is get a reliable source like Qorvo, ex Rfmd, supplier for Nokia phones!! No reduced chipset, or extended waiting times, will take the bad taste from the original deal... Better luck next time! 

[zundappchef 92]

i just checked preorders are open on the  F(x) tec pro 1 x 256/8gb
the awesome thing is its cheaper then what i payed on indiegogo 😅
Still im excited and its going to be wel worth the time and money once this phone finaly arrives 

im still hoping they are joking and once the phone is going to be delevired we are going to get the major cpu upgrade we all are hoping for 
fairytales are there to believe in , and i choose to believe them

[Hook 2,907]

6 minutes ago, zundappchef said:

i just checked preorders are open on the  F(x) tec pro 1 x 256/8gb
the awesome thing is its cheaper then what i payed on indiegogo 😅

Not sure where you are seeing it.  I see pre-order of 8/256 for $899 USD on the site.  It's still available on IGG for &719 USD. 

And, no, no chip change which would involve another 6-8 months of work and an expense they don't have the budget for.

[EskeRahn 5,399]

4 hours ago, Hook said:

Not sure where you are seeing it.  I see pre-order of 8/256 for $899 USD on the site.  It's still available on IGG for &719 USD. 

Here in Europe we see "€741.00 free shipping" for pre-orders.
The IGG Perk is $721+40 or roughly €630 including shipping

Neither mentions customs, so expect that to be added outside the UK.

[Dean 6]

I have an open letter for "no Uma suzuki, lame boy advance, FlyingAntero, tsunero" and anyone else that has been severely disappointed in the pro 1x debacle! Please let me hear from you your real feelings on this crock of poop! Don't be shy now, they owe us much for our money! 

[Dean 6]

Please excuse fat fingers mistakes, I need a real keyboard.