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Notice regarding getting Google SafetyNet Certified software

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I believe that it is better when the device comes with locked bootloader. Then people can use all Google services if they want without hassle. If someone wants to flash different OS to the device, it is trivial to unlock bootloader and flash whatever he/she wants (just like with OnePlus devices). If you do not input any personal information during start up I believe that Google does not collect anything from you since the device is fully wiped during flashing process. Of course it would be different thing if the bootloader would be locked permanently. Luckily that is not the situation with Pro1¬†ūüėČ.

Edited by FlyingAntero
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14 minutes ago, FlyingAntero said:

I believe that it is better when the device comes with locked bootloader. Then people can use all Google services if they want without hassle. If someone wants to flash different OS to the device, it is trivial to unlock bootloader and flash whatever he/she wants (just like with OnePlus devices). If you do not input any personal information during start up I believe that Google does not collect anything from you since the device is fully wiped during flashing process. Of course it would be different thing if the bootloader would be locked permanently. Luckily that is not the situation with Pro1¬†ūüėČ.

I agree, though one should remember that "If you do not input any personal information" is not as easy as it sounds. As they collect your position data(*), and that alone would be enough to identify most of us. And especially if you also use the narcissistic media, e.g. Faecesbook, plus the search history. They can link it all together and get a quite accurate picture of most people.

(*) Position data are NOT limited to GPS. But also what WiFi networks and cellular masts are visible...

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Just now, EskeRahn said:

I agree, though one should remember that "If you do not input any personal information" is not as easy as it sounds. As they collect your position data, and that alone would be enough to identify most of us. And especially if you also use the narcissistic media, e.g. Faecesbook, plus the search history. They can link it all together and get a quite accurate picture of most people.

Yes, that is true. That is reason why you should not input any personal information to anywhere if you do not want to get followed. Just run trought the start up wizard by skipping everything you can and then head to the setting and allow OEM unlocking. Then you should able to unlock and flash for freedom.

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Excuse my ignorance, but what's the impact of certification (or lack thereof?) Is it just Google Pay that uses it? Would also be what banking apps check?

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9 minutes ago, glumreaper said:

Excuse my ignorance, but what's the impact of certification (or lack thereof?) Is it just Google Pay that uses it? Would also be what banking apps check?

From what I understand, banks do use it sometimes, but so does Netflix and lots of enterprise apps.

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I think netflix uses something else....  but any app (I think) is allowed to use safetynet, thats up to the app developer if they want to check that with google and use it for something.

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8 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

Absolutely. As I said "a simple inside job is all it takes"

I don't think I should start a thread on the merits of using Google.¬† I've deleted a verbose rebuttal of all the tin-foil hattery.¬† If you're in London, pm me to meet for drinks ūüôā

Edited by damion
Ain't nobody got time for this
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28 minutes ago, damion said:

Full disclosure I work in Alphabet, formerly Google for ~decade and now DeepMind the AI company.

All my comments are my own opinion and not representing Google or DeepMind.

It's actually extremely difficult to access data.  The teams with permission to access to the data, can't do anything with it because it's encrypted.  The teams with access to the encryption keys, don't have permission to access the data.  Every single access is logged and broadcasted loudly.

Google employ tens of thousands of engineers who you would find a quiet like-minded in terms of privacy.  This is demonstrated with things like our transparency reports.  ALL companies are obliged to obey court orders for access for information relating to to specific criminal cases.  However Google broadcast loudly how many there are, with significant irritation to those countries in question.  Do you may have noticed Google pulled out of China...

This thread contains a whole lot of comments which I could not really go into much more detail (I mostly because I don't have time), but please consider that Google have some of the most highly competent technical security experts.  personally I would be genuinely concerned using anything other than a locked bootloader with a Google version of the OS.

Sure they collect data and no this is not useful to sell! Google have plenty of money because people click on the ads because the ads are relevant, the more relevant the more likely the click.  It really is as simple as this, nothing malicious, but feel free to not believe me...

Thanks for the insight. Another view would be: No collection, no risk of loosing it. wilfully or accidentally.

An old saying goes: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

In the US almost anyone can get a gun, most likely primarily bought with good intentions for protection, and big surprise a lot of malicious stuff follows by that.
In other countries were guns are harder to get at, big surprise: Fewer are shot.
And don't get me wrong, a lot of evil happens all over the world, so it is by far limited to guns.

The price of easy access to lethal weapons are dead people. And I'm not to say if it is worth the price or not, that is a domestic US political matter.

The price of collecting private data on everybody (almost literally) is the risk of someone getting to these data. a risk involving billions of people.

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Heh, well deleting the post didn't help ūüôā Yes not collecting helps but then the ads would be less relevant, Google would make less money and all the world changing goodness they're also responsible for, would be at risk.

It is possible to turn off collection albeit too awkward to do that well.  I'll see if I can feed that back internally.

I actually need enterprise stuff so I'm very much hoping I can get the phone fully approved.  I may need to buy another one and send it to secops!

Edited by damion
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1 minute ago, damion said:

Heh, well deleting the post didn't help ūüôā Yes not collecting helps but then the ads would be less relevant, Google would make less money and all the world changing goodness they're also responsible for, would be at risk.

It is possible to turn off collection albeit too awkward to do that well.  I'll see if I can feed that back.

Personally I would just LOVE to have a way to do micro-payments for NOT wasting my screen with ads, at the exact same amount each site get for showing the ads!

I imagine that the companies providing all this junk by law was ordered to also provide the users with an option to pay to not see. Technically with some limits on the amount per view, if more I could choose to see the junk or leave the page. This is especially interesting for the small mobile devices, where the bandwidth wasted for ads also eats a LOT of peoples battery stamina.

I use various kinds of adblockers, and feel a little guilty about it, but there are no offered alternatives. Google could start by offering a paid search engine, with no ads, no user related data collection(*), and fair ranking of stuff - I would be interested, and doubt that I'm alone.
(*) It would be quite OK to collect the data on how many are interested in each site, as long as it is not combined with ANY sort of cross referencing to other data.

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I know a lot of people going through ILR due to Brexit, and they are extremely thankful they are able to check their location history.

I've heard some extremely horrific stories about ad blockers.  But that'll need to wait for pub chat

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6 minutes ago, damion said:

I've heard some extremely horrific stories about ad blockers.  But that'll need to wait for pub chat

I would certainly prefer not to use them, but if the alternative are the horrific pest of ads, and not a way to buy them away, well then I take the risk...

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3 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

Personally I would just LOVE to have a way to do micro-payments for NOT wasting my screen with ads, at the exact same amount each site get for showing the ads!

I imagine that the companies providing all this junk by law was ordered to also provide the users with an option to pay to not see. Technically with some limits on the amount per view, if more I could choose to see the junk or leave the page. This is especially interesting for the small mobile devices, where the bandwidth wasted for ads also eats a LOT of peoples battery stamina.

I use various kinds of adblockers, and feel a little guilty about it, but there are no offered alternatives. Google could start by offering a paid search engine, with no ads, no user related data collection(*), and fair ranking of stuff - I would be interested, and doubt that I'm alone.
(*) It would be quite OK to collect the data on how many are interested in each site, as long as it is not combined with ANY sort of cross referencing to other data.

Brave Browser offers exactly what you're suggesting. You really should investigate it.

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1 hour ago, silversolver said:

Brave Browser offers exactly what you're suggesting. You really should investigate it.

I'll second Brave; it's fantastic!

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8 hours ago, damion said:

Heh, well deleting the post didn't help ūüôā Yes not collecting helps but then the ads would be less relevant, Google would make less money and all the world changing goodness they're also responsible for, would be at risk.

It is possible to turn off collection albeit too awkward to do that well.  I'll see if I can feed that back internally.

I actually need enterprise stuff so I'm very much hoping I can get the phone fully approved.  I may need to buy another one and send it to secops!

I hardly think there would not be enough money for the goodness if they would earn less money from ads. There is enough money for that, just not for shareholders.
And that is the point, it always has to go up, yeah they may not sell the data now. But what if the shareholders are not happy any more because google hit the grow-limit? What if the ad economy breaks down?

P.S. The point with china is worthless. They tried hard to do a specialized engine for china, only the engineers are not in for it. As any big company they happily help the regime because china is a big market

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@damion re. "all the world changing goodness" - that's altogether suggestive, and sounds to a non-Googleite like a very inside influenced viewpoint.  "goodness" for Google & shareholders maybe one thing, but it unlikely to apply universally outside of Google, or to all varying aspects of the Google empire....

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17 hours ago, damion said:

I don't think I should start a thread on the merits of using Google.¬† I've deleted a verbose rebuttal of all the tin-foil hattery.¬† If you're in London, pm me to meet for drinks ūüôā

I just want to make a quick statement: The US government can and does get access to my data without a warrant since I am not a US citizen. No amount of technological safeguards can stop that. Look up programs such as PRISM that systematically gather tons and tons of data on non-US citizens, and there are likely many more like it that have popped up since PRISM.

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42 minutes ago, abielins said:

I just want to make a quick statement: The US government can and does get access to my data without a warrant since I am not a US citizen. No amount of technological safeguards can stop that. Look up programs such as PRISM that systematically gather tons and tons of data on non-US citizens, and there are likely many more like it that have popped up since PRISM.

Five eyes comes to mind.....

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On 12/5/2019 at 11:46 AM, EskeRahn said:

Off topic:

In that link i stumbled upon

fastboot oem off-mode-charge 1

That allows the Pro1 to charge while staying turned off. I do not know if there is a good reason for them to turn this feature Off by default (Or maybe it is Off by default without FxTec changing it?) Tried it On with slow charging, and from what I can see it works exactly as you would expect. Will try with fast charge when the level is sufficiently low for it to make sense.

ADD: When the off-mode-charge is Off, the device will autmatically power up when power is applied.

Tried fast charging also, works just fine.

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22 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

 

The price of collecting private data on everybody (almost literally) is the risk of someone getting to these data. a risk involving billions of people.

For balance, it would be good to also talk about (and particularly great to hear from an insider about) all the good things Google do with the data. All the analytics, tuning of services, and useful generalised application of the data.

Edited by glumreaper

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2 hours ago, glumreaper said:

For balance, it would be good to also talk about (and particularly great to hear from an insider about) all the good things Google do with the data. All the analytics, tuning of services, and useful generalised application of the data.

Honestly? If I were allowed to choose, I'd rather not have anyone actually get and keep my data. I do not care what good they might or might not be doing.

One reason I liked Windows XP and even 7 was the fact, that they were much more privacy-friendly. I dislike Windows 10 for this reason (yet as a software architect I am using it both at work AND at home - though only on my laptop and my gaming rig, which will become one and the same computer in a few months thanks to eGPU).

My server is running Ubuntu and while I do know Canonical was a bit careless offering internet search engine like default search via Unity, I did investigate deeper and found out that they reverted next to everything in that regard.

Yes, I have been using Android for over a decade, because it's the closest to what I expect from a good smartphone. Yet if Sailfish was to run fine on the pro1, I'd be highly interested as the only real thing I need from Android / iOS is WhatsApp (due to my contacts etc.). And yes, I dislike Facebook, Microsoft and Google equally for collecting data without me being allowed to suppress this. It's their right - which is why I dislike them, but at the same time use them here and there and instead treat the symptoms by e.g. using AdBlockers or other means.

Indeed: for certain websites I'd just prefer to pay them as much as they'd get from showing me the ad (not clicking it, because I never click on ads on purpose - in the hope that the ad industry might die one day). Sadly that's not possible and I do not want to pay 3 euro for each of the 10 regular sites I am browsing. That leaves me with the AdBlocker solution.

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54 minutes ago, kashif said:

can all the boot loader commands be put somewhere so to know what options are available?

# fastboot -help

 

usage: fastboot [ <option> ] <command>

commands:
  update <filename>                        Reflash device from update.zip.
                                           Sets the flashed slot as active.
  flashall                                 Flash boot, system, vendor, and --
                                           if found -- recovery. If the device
                                           supports slots, the slot that has
                                           been flashed to is set as active.
                                           Secondary images may be flashed to
                                           an inactive slot.
  flash <partition> [ <filename> ]         Write a file to a flash partition.
  flashing lock                            Locks the device. Prevents flashing.
  flashing unlock                          Unlocks the device. Allows flashing
                                           any partition except
                                           bootloader-related partitions.
  flashing lock_critical                   Prevents flashing bootloader-related
                                           partitions.
  flashing unlock_critical                 Enables flashing bootloader-related
                                           partitions.
  flashing get_unlock_ability              Queries bootloader to see if the
                                           device is unlocked.
  flashing get_unlock_bootloader_nonce     Queries the bootloader to get the
                                           unlock nonce.
  flashing unlock_bootloader <request>     Issue unlock bootloader using request.
  flashing lock_bootloader                 Locks the bootloader to prevent
                                           bootloader version rollback.
  erase <partition>                        Erase a flash partition.
  format[:[<fs type>][:[<size>]] <partition>
                                           Format a flash partition. Can
                                           override the fs type and/or size
                                           the bootloader reports.
  getvar <variable>                        Display a bootloader variable.
  set_active <slot>                        Sets the active slot. If slots are
                                           not supported, this does nothing.
  boot <kernel> [ <ramdisk> [ <second> ] ] Download and boot kernel.
  flash:raw <bootable-partition> <kernel> [ <ramdisk> [ <second> ] ]
                                           Create bootimage and flash it.
  devices [-l]                             List all connected devices [with
                                           device paths].
  continue                                 Continue with autoboot.
  reboot [bootloader|emergency]            Reboot device [into bootloader or emergency mode].
  reboot-bootloader                        Reboot device into bootloader.
  oem <parameter1> ... <parameterN>        Executes oem specific command.
  stage <infile>                           Sends contents of <infile> to stage for
                                           the next command. Supported only on
                                           Android Things devices.
  get_staged <outfile>                     Receives data to <outfile> staged by the
                                           last command. Supported only on Android
                                           Things devices.
  help                                     Show this help message.

options:
  -w                                       Erase userdata and cache (and format
                                           if supported by partition type).
  -u                                       Do not erase partition before
                                           formatting.
  -s <specific device>                     Specify a device. For USB, provide either
                                           a serial number or path to device port.
                                           For ethernet, provide an address in the
                                           form <protocol>:<hostname>[:port] where
                                           <protocol> is either tcp or udp.
  -c <cmdline>                             Override kernel commandline.
  -i <vendor id>                           Specify a custom USB vendor id.
  -b, --base <base_addr>                   Specify a custom kernel base
                                           address (default: 0x10000000).
  --kernel-offset                          Specify a custom kernel offset.
                                           (default: 0x00008000)
  --ramdisk-offset                         Specify a custom ramdisk offset.
                                           (default: 0x01000000)
  --tags-offset                            Specify a custom tags offset.
                                           (default: 0x00000100)
  -n, --page-size <page size>              Specify the nand page size
                                           (default: 2048).
  -S <size>[K|M|G]                         Automatically sparse files greater
                                           than 'size'. 0 to disable.
  --slot <slot>                            Specify slot name to be used if the
                                           device supports slots. All operations
                                           on partitions that support slots will
                                           be done on the slot specified.
                                           'all' can be given to refer to all slots.
                                           'other' can be given to refer to a
                                           non-current slot. If this flag is not
                                           used, slotted partitions will default
                                           to the current active slot.
  -a, --set-active[=<slot>]                Sets the active slot. If no slot is
                                           provided, this will default to the value
                                           given by --slot. If slots are not
                                           supported, this does nothing. This will
                                           run after all non-reboot commands.
  --skip-secondary                         Will not flash secondary slots when
                                           performing a flashall or update. This
                                           will preserve data on other slots.
  --skip-reboot                            Will not reboot the device when
                                           performing commands that normally
                                           trigger a reboot.
  --disable-verity                         Set the disable-verity flag in the
                                           the vbmeta image being flashed.
  --disable-verification                   Set the disable-verification flag in
                                           the vbmeta image being flashed.
  --wipe-and-use-fbe                       On devices which support it,
                                           erase userdata and cache, and
                                           enable file-based encryption
  --unbuffered                             Do not buffer input or output.
  --version                                Display version.
  -h, --help                               show this message.

Edited by Craig
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11 hours ago, Craig said:

# fastboot -help

  Hide contents

usage: fastboot [ <option> ] <command>

commands:
  update <filename>                        Reflash device from update.zip.
                                           Sets the flashed slot as active.
  flashall                                 Flash boot, system, vendor, and --
                                           if found -- recovery. If the device
                                           supports slots, the slot that has
                                           been flashed to is set as active.
                                           Secondary images may be flashed to
                                           an inactive slot.
  flash <partition> [ <filename> ]         Write a file to a flash partition.
  flashing lock                            Locks the device. Prevents flashing.
  flashing unlock                          Unlocks the device. Allows flashing
                                           any partition except
                                           bootloader-related partitions.
  flashing lock_critical                   Prevents flashing bootloader-related
                                           partitions.
  flashing unlock_critical                 Enables flashing bootloader-related
                                           partitions.
  flashing get_unlock_ability              Queries bootloader to see if the
                                           device is unlocked.
  flashing get_unlock_bootloader_nonce     Queries the bootloader to get the
                                           unlock nonce.
  flashing unlock_bootloader <request>     Issue unlock bootloader using request.
  flashing lock_bootloader                 Locks the bootloader to prevent
                                           bootloader version rollback.
  erase <partition>                        Erase a flash partition.
  format[:[<fs type>][:[<size>]] <partition>
                                           Format a flash partition. Can
                                           override the fs type and/or size
                                           the bootloader reports.
  getvar <variable>                        Display a bootloader variable.
  set_active <slot>                        Sets the active slot. If slots are
                                           not supported, this does nothing.
  boot <kernel> [ <ramdisk> [ <second> ] ] Download and boot kernel.
  flash:raw <bootable-partition> <kernel> [ <ramdisk> [ <second> ] ]
                                           Create bootimage and flash it.
  devices [-l]                             List all connected devices [with
                                           device paths].
  continue                                 Continue with autoboot.
  reboot [bootloader|emergency]            Reboot device [into bootloader or emergency mode].
  reboot-bootloader                        Reboot device into bootloader.
  oem <parameter1> ... <parameterN>        Executes oem specific command.
  stage <infile>                           Sends contents of <infile> to stage for
                                           the next command. Supported only on
                                           Android Things devices.
  get_staged <outfile>                     Receives data to <outfile> staged by the
                                           last command. Supported only on Android
                                           Things devices.
  help                                     Show this help message.

options:
  -w                                       Erase userdata and cache (and format
                                           if supported by partition type).
  -u                                       Do not erase partition before
                                           formatting.
  -s <specific device>                     Specify a device. For USB, provide either
                                           a serial number or path to device port.
                                           For ethernet, provide an address in the
                                           form <protocol>:<hostname>[:port] where
                                           <protocol> is either tcp or udp.
  -c <cmdline>                             Override kernel commandline.
  -i <vendor id>                           Specify a custom USB vendor id.
  -b, --base <base_addr>                   Specify a custom kernel base
                                           address (default: 0x10000000).
  --kernel-offset                          Specify a custom kernel offset.
                                           (default: 0x00008000)
  --ramdisk-offset                         Specify a custom ramdisk offset.
                                           (default: 0x01000000)
  --tags-offset                            Specify a custom tags offset.
                                           (default: 0x00000100)
  -n, --page-size <page size>              Specify the nand page size
                                           (default: 2048).
  -S <size>[K|M|G]                         Automatically sparse files greater
                                           than 'size'. 0 to disable.
  --slot <slot>                            Specify slot name to be used if the
                                           device supports slots. All operations
                                           on partitions that support slots will
                                           be done on the slot specified.
                                           'all' can be given to refer to all slots.
                                           'other' can be given to refer to a
                                           non-current slot. If this flag is not
                                           used, slotted partitions will default
                                           to the current active slot.
  -a, --set-active[=<slot>]                Sets the active slot. If no slot is
                                           provided, this will default to the value
                                           given by --slot. If slots are not
                                           supported, this does nothing. This will
                                           run after all non-reboot commands.
  --skip-secondary                         Will not flash secondary slots when
                                           performing a flashall or update. This
                                           will preserve data on other slots.
  --skip-reboot                            Will not reboot the device when
                                           performing commands that normally
                                           trigger a reboot.
  --disable-verity                         Set the disable-verity flag in the
                                           the vbmeta image being flashed.
  --disable-verification                   Set the disable-verification flag in
                                           the vbmeta image being flashed.
  --wipe-and-use-fbe                       On devices which support it,
                                           erase userdata and cache, and
                                           enable file-based encryption
  --unbuffered                             Do not buffer input or output.
  --version                                Display version.
  -h, --help                               show this message.

 

I see a slightly different set of commands (Took the liberty to mark the above quote as Code to increase readability)

  Hide contents
usage: fastboot [OPTION...] COMMAND...

flashing:
 update ZIP                 Flash all partitions from an update.zip package.
 flashall                   Flash all partitions from $ANDROID_PRODUCT_OUT.
                            On A/B devices, flashed slot is set as active.
                            Secondary images may be flashed to inactive slot.
 flash PARTITION [FILENAME] Flash given partition, using the image from
                            $ANDROID_PRODUCT_OUT if no filename is given.

basics:
 devices [-l]               List devices in bootloader (-l: with device paths).
 getvar NAME                Display given bootloader variable.
 reboot [bootloader]        Reboot device.

locking/unlocking:
 flashing lock|unlock       Lock/unlock partitions for flashing
 flashing lock_critical|unlock_critical
                            Lock/unlock 'critical' bootloader partitions.
 flashing get_unlock_ability
                            Check whether unlocking is allowed (1) or not(0).

advanced:
 erase PARTITION            Erase a flash partition.
 format[:FS_TYPE[:SIZE]] PARTITION
                            Format a flash partition.
 set_active SLOT            Set the active slot.
 oem [COMMAND...]           Execute OEM-specific command.
 gsi wipe|disable           Wipe or disable a GSI installation (fastbootd only).
 wipe-super [SUPER_EMPTY]   Wipe the super partition. This will reset it to
                            contain an empty set of default dynamic partitions.

boot image:
 boot KERNEL [RAMDISK [SECOND]]
                            Download and boot kernel from RAM.
 flash:raw PARTITION KERNEL [RAMDISK [SECOND]]
                            Create boot image and flash it.
 --dtb DTB                  Specify path to DTB for boot image header version 2.
 --cmdline CMDLINE          Override kernel command line.
 --base ADDRESS             Set kernel base address (default: 0x10000000).
 --kernel-offset            Set kernel offset (default: 0x00008000).
 --ramdisk-offset           Set ramdisk offset (default: 0x01000000).
 --tags-offset              Set tags offset (default: 0x00000100).
 --dtb-offset               Set dtb offset (default: 0x01100000).
 --page-size BYTES          Set flash page size (default: 2048).
 --header-version VERSION   Set boot image header version.
 --os-version MAJOR[.MINOR[.PATCH]]
                            Set boot image OS version (default: 0.0.0).
 --os-patch-level YYYY-MM-DD
                            Set boot image OS security patch level.

Android Things:
 stage IN_FILE              Sends given file to stage for the next command.
 get_staged OUT_FILE        Writes data staged by the last command to a file.

options:
 -w                         Wipe userdata.
 -s SERIAL                  Specify a USB device.
 -s tcp|udp:HOST[:PORT]     Specify a network device.
 -S SIZE[K|M|G]             Break into sparse files no larger than SIZE.
 --force                    Force a flash operation that may be unsafe.
 --slot SLOT                Use SLOT; 'all' for both slots, 'other' for
                            non-current slot (default: current active slot).
 --set-active[=SLOT]        Sets the active slot before rebooting.
 --skip-secondary           Don't flash secondary slots in flashall/update.
 --skip-reboot              Don't reboot device after flashing.
 --disable-verity           Sets disable-verity when flashing vbmeta.
 --disable-verification     Sets disable-verification when flashing vbmeta.
 --unbuffered               Don't buffer input or output.
 --verbose, -v              Verbose output.
 --version                  Display version.
 --help, -h                 Show this message.

(Updated above to version 29.0.5-5949299)

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