Selling my Pro1

[Doktor Oswaldo 904]

2 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

Well not rigged, but not representative either 😉

It is great if the Pro1 can wind in a larger audience, than us that used keyboard phones a decade ago.

Maybe we should try changing the "Why are you still using a hardware keyboard?" to "Why do you let do with a surrogate keyboard?"

Or the silly aPple sheep strawman version "You are using a slab because you can not afford a keyboard phone".

On a serious note, it is all about what we use our devices for. Those of us that enter a lot of text (for whatever reason) can benefit from a real keyboard. But for those where entering text is not a central thing, well then a real keyboard is less likely to be worth the extra size and weight. To each their own.

But they sure have a hard task to getting the attention of all those fashion driven where having the same device as the top boy/girl in their (school) class feels so much more important than usability. That is the huge group of insecure people that aPple successfully have milked for a decade....

I agree, that is why I think the focus should be on people out of school and with some typing to do. And there was never a better time  for that. Smartphone market is saturated and boring. Everybody is thirsty for something new. And there were never so much people in IT like now. A lot of these people are young. This should not be forgotten!

However since I wish the prawn was a bit smaller (maybe 5.5") and had a flat screen I may be a dinosaur myself. But that is another topic 😄

[GeekOnTheHill 27]

6 hours ago, Doktor Oswaldo said:

While I agree with most thing you are missing, I can only say "ok boomer" to that statement.
People around here are not as old as you think.
Have a look here:

And note that the poll is flawed, 40+ is by far the biggest group spanning 20 years of persons in here.
So most here are between 25-30. Me included.

This is a classic case of assuming without data.

Not really. A 30-year old probably has been using mobile phones for at least 12 years (since 2008) and quite possibly before then. My goddaughters, who were living with me temporarily in 2008, both had phones, and they were pre-teens at the time.

In December of 2008, six of the top 10 most popular phones in the United States had physical keyboards. If current 30-year-olds liked them, they might very well long for a new keyboard phone with modern hardware and capabilities. One might say they are prematurely middle-aged, at least in the mobile phone context.

Also remember that generations older than yours have a lower rate of Internet use, so the sample itself may be skewed toward younger users. I emphasize may because presumably users who were using prior Internet-enabled keyboard phones were more tech-savvy than average, but that may not be the case. They could have been handed BlackBerry phones by their employers, learned to use what they had to, and ignored the rest of the phones' capabilities.

Nonetheless, I think it's safe to say that Millennial and Gen Z users are more likely than Boomers to be using Internet forums, even though we invented the Internet, for which we seldom receive any thanks.

I'll graciously forgive you for that, however, as well as the "ok boomer" pejorative, because you are, after all, a Millennial and don't know any better. 😁

Richard

 

[Doktor Oswaldo 904]

12 minutes ago, GeekOnTheHill said:

Not really. A 30-year old probably has been using mobile phones for at least 12 years (since 2008) and quite possibly before then. My goddaughters, who were living with me temporarily in 2008, both had phones, and they were pre-teens at the time.

In December of 2008, six of the top 10 most popular phones in the United States had physical keyboards. If current 30-year-olds liked them, they might very well long for a new keyboard phone with modern hardware and capabilities. One might say they are prematurely middle-aged, at least in the mobile phone context.

Also remember that generations older than yours have a lower rate of Internet use, so the sample itself may be skewed toward younger users. I emphasize may because presumably users who were using prior Internet-enabled keyboard phones were more tech-savvy than average, but that may not be the case. They could have been handed BlackBerry phones by their employers, learned to use what they had to, and ignored the rest of the phones' capabilities.

Nonetheless, I think it's safe to say that Millennial and Gen Z users are more likely than Boomers to be using Internet forums, even though we invented the Internet, for which we seldom receive any thanks.

I'll graciously forgive you for that, however, as well as the "ok boomer" pejorative, because you are, after all, a Millennial and don't know any better. 😁

Richard

 

Well this does not mean anything. Most 50 year olds were alive when cowhide furniture was a thing. They still don't buy it nowadays (thank god). Please see my second post. I just wanted to point out that this is based totally on assumptions. We just do not know....

Edited January 3, 2020 by Doktor Oswaldo

[Polaris 423]

4 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

But they sure have a hard task to getting the attention of all those fashion driven where having the same device as the top boy/girl in their (school) class feels so much more important than usability. That is the huge group of insecure people that aPple successfully have milked for a decade....

Sad, but VERY true.

[GeekOnTheHill 27]

10 hours ago, Rob. S. said:

I don't mind whether the phone has a screen like the Pro1 or a flat screen with a bezel. When I had the PRIV, I thought the rounded edges were stupid, but then again they rarely got in my way, and there was the nice feature of a battery indicator on one of the edges that could be seen even if something was lying on top of the phone. I guess it's just a software thing to make it more usable, and something F(x)tec might want to improve by exempting the edges from reacting on touch...

I've always considered rounded screens without bezels an unnecessary expense that provides little or no added functionality, an increased screen damage liability (edge impact is added to the things that can easily break the screen), a more expensive repair if that happens, and a complication in finding a hard case to prevent that from happening if one's lifestyle makes that protection prudent.

Or to put it more simply, I have no use for them. Rounded screens add expense, and increase the risk of damage and the cost of repair, while providing zero functional benefit.

That being said, a rounded screen is not a deal-breaker if the rest of the phone meets my definition of perfection for my mission. But it's an added negative if I'm on the fence about the rest of the phone, and it definitely would break the deal if an equivalent phone with a flat screen and a bezel were in the running for my money.

Admittedly, I'm a function-over-form guy. I'd use a brick phone if it were the best performer. I'm too old to give a rat's ass about status symbols or having the coolest toy. I want the most functional device, not the prettiest one. But I'm also old enough to know that there is no such thing as perfection. Sometimes one has to compromise.

Richard

[Rob. S. 1,661]

8 minutes ago, GeekOnTheHill said:

I've always considered rounded screens without bezels an unnecessary expense that provides little or no added functionality, an increased screen damage liability (edge impact is added to the things that can easily break the screen), a more expensive repair if that happens, and a complication in finding a hard case to prevent that from happening if one's lifestyle makes that protection prudent.

Or to put it more simply, I have no use for them. Rounded screens add expense, and increase the risk of damage and the cost of repair, while providing zero functional benefit.

That being said, a rounded screen is not a deal-breaker if the rest of the phone meets my definition of perfection for my mission. But it's an added negative if I'm on the fence about the rest of the phone, and it definitely would break the deal if an equivalent phone with a flat screen and a bezel were in the running for my money.

Admittedly, I'm a function-over-form guy. I'd use a brick phone if it were the best performer. I'm too old to give a rat's ass about status symbols or having the coolest toy. I want the most functional device, not the prettiest one. But I'm also old enough to know that there is no such thing as perfection. Sometimes one has to compromise.

Right, that's very close to to what I would have written if I'd have put more time and thought into my post 😉

 

[EskeRahn 5,460]

23 minutes ago, GeekOnTheHill said:

I've always considered rounded screens without bezels an unnecessary expense that provides little or no added functionality, an increased screen damage liability (edge impact is added to the things that can easily break the screen), a more expensive repair if that happens, and a complication in finding a hard case to prevent that from happening if one's lifestyle makes that protection prudent.

Though you of course technically are right that a more complex process is more expensive. The strange thing is that curved displays have become so widespread that they actually sell cheaper. I guess simply due to being produced in larger quanta.

[GeekOnTheHill 27]

Just now, EskeRahn said:

Though you of course technically are right that a more complex process is more expensive. The strange thing is that curved displays have become so widespread that they actually sell cheaper. I guess simply due to being produced in larger quanta.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that.

Richard

[silversolver 849]

14 hours ago, GeekOnTheHill said:

Not really. A 30-year old probably has been using mobile phones for at least 12 years (since 2008) and quite possibly before then. My goddaughters, who were living with me temporarily in 2008, both had phones, and they were pre-teens at the time.

In December of 2008, six of the top 10 most popular phones in the United States had physical keyboards. If current 30-year-olds liked them, they might very well long for a new keyboard phone with modern hardware and capabilities. One might say they are prematurely middle-aged, at least in the mobile phone context.

Also remember that generations older than yours have a lower rate of Internet use, so the sample itself may be skewed toward younger users. I emphasize may because presumably users who were using prior Internet-enabled keyboard phones were more tech-savvy than average, but that may not be the case. They could have been handed BlackBerry phones by their employers, learned to use what they had to, and ignored the rest of the phones' capabilities.

Nonetheless, I think it's safe to say that Millennial and Gen Z users are more likely than Boomers to be using Internet forums, even though we invented the Internet, for which we seldom receive any thanks.

I'll graciously forgive you for that, however, as well as the "ok boomer" pejorative, because you are, after all, a Millennial and don't know any better. 😁

Richard

 

OK, so I'll ask the question everyone is wondering...how old are you? Fair's fair; I'm 36, but as previously mentioned was born old. I've been telling my daughter I'll be 81 in February. 😉

[GeekOnTheHill 27]

52 minutes ago, silversolver said:

OK, so I'll ask the question everyone is wondering...how old are you? Fair's fair; I'm 36, but as previously mentioned was born old. I've been telling my daughter I'll be 81 in February. 😉

I like maintaining an air of mystery on the Interwebs. Would it be enough to say that I remember JFK very well?

Richard

[ksal95 227]

1 hour ago, silversolver said:

OK, so I'll ask the question everyone is wondering...how old are you? Fair's fair; I'm 36, but as previously mentioned was born old. I've been telling my daughter I'll be 81 in February. 😉

Soon to be 25, in April 🙃

[glumreaper 144]

17 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

 

It is great if the Pro1 can wind in a larger audience, than us that used keyboard phones a decade ago.

Maybe we should try changing the "Why are you still using a hardware keyboard?" to "Why do you let do with a surrogate keyboard?"

Or the silly aPple sheep strawman version "You are using a slab because you can not afford a keyboard phone".

 

To me this is the ideal: get keyboard phones popular and mainstream again. I'd love for the Pro1 to do really well and convince other manufacturers to also bring back the side-sliding hardware keyboard form factor.

However, I've come to realise that I don't really want to buy the Pro1. It's got too many niggles right now, and I don't really trust FXtec. However, I'm willing to get one and support them because it's the only option at the moment in this form factor.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

3 hours ago, glumreaper said:

 

However, I've come to realise that I don't really want to buy the Pro1. It's got too many niggles right now, and I don't really trust FXtec. However, I'm willing to get one and support them because it's the only option at the moment in this form factor.

Well I used the BB Priv for quite a while sort of with similar feelings. Far from perfect for me with the keyboard in the wrong direction, but it was definitely the least bad option available.

The Pro1 is MUCH closer to what I want. And most of the things I have to complain about could be fixed with firmware.

e.g. I have since spring suggested them to offer the users an OPTION that 'simply' made a user selectable logical display. Call it software-bezels, This would allow some users to use the full edge screen, and others to have a flat square slightly lesser display area. People with very large fingers could even set larger bezels. Yes I know software that does something similar exists, but it needs to go in the hardware-driver, so everything asking, sees the reduced logical size only. Completely hiding the real display size.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

6 hours ago, GeekOnTheHill said:

I like maintaining an air of mystery on the Interwebs. Would it be enough to say that I remember JFK very well?

Richard

Ah, you mean the airport? 😇🤣

[GeekOnTheHill 27]

2 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

Ah, you mean the airport? 😇🤣

As well as the man. I miss the man. The airport, not so much (although it beats LGA).

Richard

[GeekOnTheHill 27]

7 hours ago, glumreaper said:

To me this is the ideal: get keyboard phones popular and mainstream again. I'd love for the Pro1 to do really well and convince other manufacturers to also bring back the side-sliding hardware keyboard form factor.

However, I've come to realise that I don't really want to buy the Pro1. It's got too many niggles right now, and I don't really trust FXtec. However, I'm willing to get one and support them because it's the only option at the moment in this form factor.

I'm also on the fence and leaning toward the "no" side, for some of the same reasons; but I'm interested enough to stay informed, also for the same reasons.

The downsides of my buying this phone right now (were that even possible) are many. The most important is that it doesn't have full support for AT&T bands. I haven't checked the VZW or TMO bands, however. VZW, if fully-supported on all bands, would definitely be an option for me. They have good signal here. TMO or one of their MVNO's might be an option for me. I haven't tested TMO's 600 MHz signal where I live. I know their other bands won't work. I happen to like AT&T, however; so unless I were fully sold on the phone and the company's survival prospects, I wouldn't want to change.

The delays are a mixed bag with regard to the company itself. Delays can be signs of disorganization, or they can be signs of a commitment to getting things right. I hope the latter is true here.

As I mentioned elsewhere, the 2017-era chip also bothers me. It would be four generations old by the time I got the device if I were to order it today.

So I'm on the fence. I have no need for a new phone right now. Electronic gadgets are a lifelong hobby for me (I got my first FCC license when I was 14), so it wouldn't be the first device I bought more because I liked it than because I needed it. But  this is a brand-new device from a brand-new company. Maybe the second version will address my hardware concerns, or maybe there will be no second version. Either way, my present stance is watchful waiting.

Richard

Edited January 4, 2020 by GeekOnTheHill
typo

[silversolver 849]

My daily driver is a Droid 4 running Android 7.1 (LineageOS) and it's fine. It is a 2012 chipset at the latest. It is a little laggy sometimes, mostly because of limited RAM. It works well enough that I'm posting this from it. I also have a BB PRIV I use mostly as a TV, and sometimes as a satnav device. It works flawlessly with no lagging for everything I do on a 2015/16 chipset. I have absolutely no concerns about the "2017" chipset, especially on a device that is almost 100% open, including the bootloader. I still have a Dell laptop with a 1998 chipset that I still use for real work on a regular basis......it's slow, but reliable.

I have no understanding of the obsession with the latest chipset. If the older one is still adequate for the task at hand, what difference does it make if the manufacturer still cares about it? Security vulnerabilities are not a thing IMO; the only REAL security vulnerability is the user.

[GeekOnTheHill 27]

19 minutes ago, silversolver said:

My daily driver is a Droid 4 running Android 7.1 (LineageOS) and it's fine. It is a 2012 chipset at the latest. It is a little laggy sometimes, mostly because of limited RAM. It works well enough that I'm posting this from it. I also have a BB PRIV I use mostly as a TV, and sometimes as a satnav device. It works flawlessly with no lagging for everything I do on a 2015/16 chipset. I have absolutely no concerns about the "2017" chipset, especially on a device that is almost 100% open, including the bootloader. I still have a Dell laptop with a 1998 chipset that I still use for real work on a regular basis......it's slow, but reliable.

I have no understanding of the obsession with the latest chipset. If the older one is still adequate for the task at hand, what difference does it make if the manufacturer still cares about it? Security vulnerabilities are not a thing IMO; the only REAL security vulnerability is the user.

It has to do with the immutable fact that software developers will always exploit hardware to its maximum capabilities; so at some point, every chip no longer performs as well in terms of user experience. It may be counting to one just as many times every second as it did when it was young, but it's starting to fall behind software that's pushing it to count faster.

That's why my policy with electronics that I can't easily upgrade post-purchase is to buy bleeding-edge. It delays the onset of obsolescence. A phone with a 2-year-old chip will obsolesce two years sooner, meaning I'm paying for two years less use of the device. Unless there's some compelling reason to the contrary, for another hundred bucks or two, I'd rather buy bleeding-edge and get the extra years.

This phone is different enough that I'm waiting for either a hardware upgrade or a compelling reason to make an exception. But I'm not sold yet.

With stuff that I can upgrade, I'm not so obsessive. I once used the same home-built desktop computer for 12 years. But by the end of that 12 years, literally every part of the machine except the case had been upgraded, piece by piece, right down to the mobo, and including the OS. I have no problem with rolling upgrades when they're practical. I'll save some gelt up front and upgrade when I need to. But that's not very practical for a phone. It's possible, I suppose; but it would be impractical and probably illegal.

Richard

Edited January 4, 2020 by GeekOnTheHill

[GeekOnTheHill 27]

Also, my V20 with the Snapdragon 820 is starting to struggle under the load of all I'm asking it to do. But I've had it for more than three years, and I have a spare V20 that I pressed into service for navigation- and mapping-related tasks, so it's no emergency. It's just another SIM card to pay for every month.

Technically, I don't even need the second V20 to be activated. I have a Verizon Jetpack account with unlimited 4G that I could feed to the second V20 for traffic updates. But my other number is starting to get overwhemed by robocalls, so I'm debating keeping the "temporary" number that I got for the second V20.

Sooner or later, though, I'd like to have one phone shouldering the whole load again.

Richard

 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by GeekOnTheHill

[VaZso 1,998]

11 minutes ago, silversolver said:

My daily driver is a Droid 4 running Android 7.1 (LineageOS) and it's fine. It is a 2012 chipset at the latest. It is a little laggy sometimes, mostly because of limited RAM. It works well enough that I'm posting this from it. I also have a BB PRIV I use mostly as a TV, and sometimes as a satnav device. It works flawlessly with no lagging for everything I do on a 2015/16 chipset. I have absolutely no concerns about the "2017" chipset, especially on a device that is almost 100% open, including the bootloader. I still have a Dell laptop with a 1998 chipset that I still use for real work on a regular basis......it's slow, but reliable.

I have no understanding of the obsession with the latest chipset. If the older one is still adequate for the task at hand, what difference does it make if the manufacturer still cares about it? Security vulnerabilities are not a thing IMO; the only REAL security vulnerability is the user.

I am currently using a laptop released in about 2012 / 2013 - it still works well, not laggy at all and at least it has better quality than almost every modern laptops.
So time is not necessarily means something is unusable, especially if hardware and build quality is good and is open enough to not depend only on manufacturer.

Anyway, manufacturers sold much weaker configurations also one or two years ago.

I think Pro1 is a hardware which may have long life also if manufacturer decides to focus on something else but we need them to sell enough phones to have enough users who support the platform...
Also, Pro1's hardware is not weak at all.

I don't know how well is the support of this chipset by Linux kernel but it may be the most important factor.
If kernel supports this chipset (and other components) well or will support it later, then it means a much longer ability to run recent software on it.

The hardware being obsolete most easily are those which have bad kernel support.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

24 minutes ago, GeekOnTheHill said:

That's why my policy with electronics that I can't easily upgrade post-purchase is to buy bleeding-edge. It delays the onset of obsolescence. A phone with a 2-year-old chip will obsolesce two years sooner, meaning I'm paying for two years less use of the device. Unless there's some compelling reason to the contrary, for another hundred bucks or two, I'd rather buy bleeding-edge and get the extra years.

I can absolutely follow you, BUT it much depends on whether you can feel reasonably certain that you can buy another in a couple of years or not.

I mean the approach makes a lot of sense for a device like the Pro1 where we do not know if/when there will be another. Had it come in several 'flavours' I would for sure have bought the one with top specs. But If I was in the market for an ordinary slab, I would most likely be looking at say yesteryears flagship, As I would feel certain that I would have upgraded to something different before it even got close to it's theoretical end of life, So buying the very newest here would just be a waste of money.

[CornholioGSM 338]

Just now, silversolver said:

I have no understanding of the obsession with the latest chipset. If the older one is still adequate for the task at hand, what difference does it make if the manufacturer still cares about it? Security vulnerabilities are not a thing IMO; the only REAL security vulnerability is the user.

...maybe i know where is problem...it is not about cpu/chipset performance...it is about phone price vs hw specs. BUT...i mean that 90% of users cannot see any difference between qc 835 and 855 with 6GB RAM...maybe it is visible on antutu and maybe will be littlebit less battery consumption...but thats all. On 835 you can still play latest games, record 4k videos atc.

QUESTION IS...for what is needed really last chipset with XYZ RAM? 95% of users have phone only for facebuk, mesenger, wacap and maybe for camera...thats all.

...AND security ?...yesss that is user problem

SOO ony VISIBLE problem is fx1 price vs latest hardware...but you will have KEYBOARD PHONE!!!

btw...i have at home PC with old 2gen i7 2600K (approx 8years old processor!!!) with nvidia gtx1060...and yes - i can play latest games in full resolution and details 🙂

...and my laptop is Vaio VPCZ1 with 1st gen i7! 😄

Edited January 4, 2020 by CornholioGSM

[GeekOnTheHill 27]

1 minute ago, EskeRahn said:

I can absolutely follow you, BUT it much depends on whether you can feel reasonably certain that you can buy another in a couple of year or not.

I mean the approach make a lot of sense for a device like the Pro1 where we do not know if/when there will be another. But If I was in a market for an ordinary slab, I would most likely be looking at say yesteryears flagship, As I would feel certain that I would have upgraded to something different before it even got close to it's theoretical end of life, So Buying the very newest here would just be a waste of money.

I tend to work my devices hard, especially with the navigation, mapping, and aviation-related apps I use. Three to four years is about all I can expect if I buy them bleeding-edge. They still work after that time, but they start to get overwhelmed.

In the case of my first V20, the GPS radios are also tired and have a hard time holding a fix these days; but that's a hard use-related problem, not an obsolescence problem.

Also, although I do like keyboard phones, I'm okay with the BT keyboard when I have to do things like manage a server via SSH. Termius works great with my BT keyboard. So a keyboard phone would be a "nice" rather than a "must have" for me. I'm not even sure that it would work as well as the BT keyboard because I don't know how it would handle the key combinations needed for shell operations.

What it comes down to is that I'm interested, but not yet sold. There's a lot to weigh on both sides of the scale.

Richard

[GeekOnTheHill 27]

10 minutes ago, CornholioGSM said:

...maybe i know where is problem...it is not about cpu/chipset performance...it is about phone price vs hw specs. BUT...i mean that 90% of users cannot see any difference between qc 835 and 855 with 6GB RAM...maybe it is visible on antutu and maybe will be littlebit less battery consumption...but thats all. On 835 you can still play latest games, record 4k videos atc.

QUESTION IS...for what is needed really last chipset with XYZ RAM? 95% of users have phone only for facebuk, mesenger, wacap and maybe for camera...thats all.

...AND security ?...yesss that is user problem

SOO ony VISIBLE problem is fx1 price vs latest hardware...but you will have KEYBOARD PHONE!!!

btw...i have at home PC with old 2gen i7 2600K (approx 8years old processor!!!) with nvidia gtx1060...and yes - i can play latest games in full resolution and details 🙂

...and my laptop is Vaio VPCZ1 with 1st gen i7! 😄

Actually, I don't even know the price...

Richard

[Hook 3,020]

26 minutes ago, GeekOnTheHill said:

That's why my policy with electronics that I can't easily upgrade post-purchase is to buy bleeding-edge. It delays the onset of obsolescence. A phone with a 2-year-old chip will obsolesce two years sooner, meaning I'm paying for two years less use of the device. Unless there's some compelling reason to the contrary, for another hundred bucks or two, I'd rather buy bleeding-edge and get the extra years.

I think the others above have been making this point, but while I understand this thinking (I also remember JFK), I think smartphones have hit the same CPU plateau computers hit in the mid 2000s.  Succeeding generations of chips get faster on the benchmarks, but in real life, performance isn't getting that much better and, in fact, battery consumption may be getting worse for what little performance benefit you get.  I don't think there is a lot that an 835 SD CPU and 6 Gb won't be able to handle for some time to come.  For the same reason, I don't even care if I have the latest version of Android.  You aren't getting major innovations between versions.  My going on 6 Year old Samsung tablet does fine performance wise running on Android 7 via Lineage OS and even gets the latest security patches.