Design the QWERTZ layout

[Waxberry 638]

So there’s been some ideas floating around since the last official version posted here, some which I disagree with, some which are okay.

 

Might sound selfish, but I’d personally prefer a German centered QWERTZ layout with little to no symbols from other layouts mixed in. Software layout can be whatever. This is about the labels.

 

So what’s the state of the official layout right now? What’s the deadline on it?

 

We need to be done with this at some point I suppose and perhaps also get some additional pointers in regards what’s actually up to discussion right now and decided on that.

 

This is what we think as well. For regional layout we want to serve make sure the layout fits the typical language, instead of mixing with 2 languages. This is what most other company does. So in this case we want to make the layout German centred.

[Waxberry 638]

[attachment file=13690]

 

This is probably still not perfect for some, but I tend to use this as the final QWERTZ layout. It's supposed to German centred so apologise for not including some symbols from other languages.

 

Once QWERTZ is confirmed, if there is demand for other language, we will make it in similar ways.

[elvissteinjr 359]

This looks fine for the most part, but is it just me or is ' (apostrophe) missing? Can't tell if the top right symbols are both accents (as expected) or one is the apostrophe. Not having apostrophe would make writing English and well, many other things too, a bit awkward.

 

I'd still vote for having the degree symbol ° on there somewhere, but we've agreed it's not that critical I suppose.

Are the symbol name keys now all lowercase on QWERTY as well? I'd personally say standard capitalization of the first letter on them would fit better with German, but that's purely a design decision.

 

Hope you don't screw up the bumps on F and J as the layout is shifted compared to the QWERTY version.

 

But it's very good already, thanks for offering this layout!

[EskeRahn 5,427]

I’d still vote for having the degree symbol ° on there somewhere, but we’ve agreed it’s not that critical I suppose.

 

That symbols such as the degree symbol ° are not printed does nor mean that they would not be available. An obvious choice would be "strg"+†+0

 

But this is easy to decide/modify later. :)

[netman 1,424]

forwarding this here from twitter

[Doktor Oswaldo 904]

elvissteinjr wrote:

So there’s been some ideas floating around since the last official version posted here, some which I disagree with, some which are okay.

 

Might sound selfish, but I’d personally prefer a German centered QWERTZ layout with little to no symbols from other layouts mixed in. Software layout can be whatever. This is about the labels.

 

So what’s the state of the official layout right now? What’s the deadline on it?

 

We need to be done with this at some point I suppose and perhaps also get some additional pointers in regards what’s actually up to discussion right now and decided on that.

This is what we think as well. For regional layout we want to serve make sure the layout fits the typical language, instead of mixing with 2 languages. This is what most other company does. So in this case we want to make the layout German centred.

 

Exactly what I say. Do a layout right. It is better to make a majority as happy as possible than to try to make everyone a little happy (which will fail). I mean would be great to see the phone (or the version 2) with a truckload of different prints someday. But to have 2 or more layouts merged isn't what will bring non-techies into the phone!

[Keyahnig 80]

Will the QWERTZ available on the same date like the QWERTY?

I'm still not sure which one to get since I use ö, ä and ü a lot but I like the centered approach of the QWERTY more. So might just go with the QWERTY if the QWERTZ is released a few months later.

[TeZtdevice 274]

Will the QWERTZ available on the same date like the QWERTY?

 

I’m still not sure which one to get since I use ö, ä and ü a lot but I like the centered approach of the QWERTY more. So might just go with the QWERTY if the QWERTZ is released a few months later.

 

The plan is to release the QWERTZ with QWERTY (according to my info)

[OliverTypes 152]

Looks good, safe for the missing apostrophe. Where would that be?

[Keyahnig 80]

Looks good, safe for the missing apostrophe. Where would that be?

 

The button between "ß" and backspace looks like it might be an apostrophe. It could also be an accent aigu (the thing on this "é"). It's hard to tell.

[nidajeny 0]

I’m not sure I can handle this layout. The Z is completely misplaced :D

 

Would it be possible to add a å instead of or together with ü it might just work. But for now I think I’ll pass and wait for a real layout or FXll.

[EskeRahn 5,427]

I’m not sure I can handle this layout. The Z is completely misplaced :D

 

Would it be possible to add a å instead of or together with ü it might just work. But for now I think I’ll pass and wait for a real layout or FXll.

 

I assume you are Swedish, so all you would need to remember to use Swedish layout width the QWERTZ print is that

• 1) Y and Z are swapped

2) The Å key got Ü printed on it

Might not be 100% perfect, but much closer that the standard QWERTY.

 

(It will not be a show stopper for me as a Dane - even if the öä for us are also swapped and with different symbols than our æø)

[Jacob_S 128]

 

This is probably still not perfect for some, but I tend to use this as the final QWERTZ layout. It’s supposed to German centred so apologise for not including some symbols from other languages.

 

Once QWERTZ is confirmed, if there is demand for other language, we will make it in similar ways.

 

Either the apostrophe ' or accent á is missing on this version. Losing a symbol compared to prior layouts would be sad.

I once again would suggest using raphaelcno's version but with # and ' swapped because for me it would be best if the ' is placed on the ä key.

What I don't really mind is the placement of backspace \, rhombus # and tilde ~, so you might place them more similar to your suggested layout.

[raphaelcno 21]

<span class="image-overlay overlay-type-image" style="left: -5px; top: -402.281px; overflow: hidden; display: block; height: 415px; width: 748px;"><span class="image-overlay-inside"></span></span>

 

This is probably still not perfect for some, but I tend to use this as the final QWERTZ layout.

 

There must have been a misunderstanding. The key between "ß" and backspace should be (´) accent (Alt+0180), while the apostrophe (') (Alt+0039) should be on the "Ö" key.

Slash (\) should be below the "ß" key, that means on the "Ü" key.

Tilde (~) may be on the "N" key or on the "L" key. It is more natural to have it on the "N" key because of "Ñ".

See attached layout:

 

[attachment file=F(x) - QWERTZ-20190427 - 2019-05-03_RCa.png]

 

For the apostrophe (') you should use Alt+0039, not Alt+0146 (curly).

For the quotation mark (") you should use Alt+0034, not Alt+0148 (curly).

(This also applies to the US keyboard and other future keyboards.)

 

[raphaelcno 21]

<span class="image-overlay overlay-type-image" style="left: -5px; top: -402.281px; overflow: hidden; display: block; height: 415px; width: 748px;"><span class="image-overlay-inside"></span></span>

 

This is probably still not perfect for some, but I tend to use this as the final QWERTZ layout.

 

There must have been a misunderstanding. The key between "ß" and backspace should be (´) accent (Alt+0180), while the apostrophe (') (Alt+0039) should be on the "Ö" key.

Slash (\) should be below the "ß" key, that means on the "Ü" key.

Tilde (~) may be on the "N" key or on the "L" key. It is more natural to have it on the "N" key because of "Ñ".

See attached layout:

 

[attachment file=F(x) - QWERTZ-20190427 - 2019-05-03_RCa.png]

 

For the apostrophe (') you should use Alt+0039, not Alt+0146 (curly).

For the quotation mark (") you should use Alt+0034, not Alt+0148 (curly).

(This also applies to the US keyboard and other future keyboards.)

 

[raphaelcno 21]

This is probably still not perfect for some, but I tend to use this as the final QWERTZ layout.

 

There must have been a misunderstanding. The key between "ß" and backspace should be (´) accent (Alt+0180), while the apostrophe (') (Alt+0039) should be on the "Ö" key.

Slash (\) should be below the "ß" key, that means on the "Ü" key.

Tilde (~) may be on the "N" key or on the "L" key. It is more natural to have it on the "N" key because of "Ñ".

See attached layout:

 

[attachment file=F(x) - QWERTZ-20190427 - 2019-05-03_RCa.png]

 

For the apostrophe (') you should use Alt+0039, not Alt+0146 (curly).

For the quotation mark (") you should use Alt+0034, not Alt+0148 (curly).

(This also applies to the US keyboard and other future keyboards.)

 

[raphaelcno 21]

This is probably still not perfect for some' date=' but I tend to use this as the final QWERTZ layout.[/quote']

 

There must have been a misunderstanding. The key between "ß" and backspace should be (´) accent (Alt+0180), while the apostrophe (') (Alt+0039) should be on the "Ö" key.

Backslash (\) should be below the "ß" key, that means on the "Ü" key.

Tilde (~) may be on the "N" key or on the "L" key. It is more natural to have it on the "N" key because of "Ñ".

See attached layout:

 

[attachment file=F(x) - QWERTZ-20190427 - 2019-05-03_RCa.png]

 

For the apostrophe (') you should use Alt+0039, not Alt+0146 (curly).

For the quotation mark (") you should use Alt+0034, not Alt+0148 (curly).

(This also applies to the US keyboard and other future keyboards.)

[Parhelion 114]

raphaelcno, Looks great and just like something I'd like to use..

I dearly hope there's still something to be done about that one, trouble with apostrophe and accent aigu would be quite unpleasant.

 

Since you mentioned the quotation mark, how are you gonig to handle the lowercase quotation mark? Due to internationalization they're a bit on the retreat, but nevertheless indespensable for correct german and many other languages. It's usually a matter of software recognising which one is necessary, so I would like the software to put „ “ depending on whether there has been one before, with the possibility to alter for example by highlighting with CAPS + Arrow and Sym (and/or touchscreen action).

This way should represent the German / Austrian usage.

 

Alas - quotation marks in itself is a complicated subject.. Straight, typographic, single, double, brackets single or double, and disagreement which one's opener and which one closes...

[raphaelcno 21]

raphaelcno

Since you mentioned the quotation mark, how are you gonig to handle the lowercase quotation mark?

It’s usually a matter of software recognising which one is necessary, so I would like the software to put „ “ depending on whether there has been one before, with the possibility to alter for example by highlighting with CAPS + Arrow and Sym (and/or touchscreen action).

 

If the lowercase quotation mark („) does not exist on the standard desktop keyboard, it will probably not be present on the phone keyboard either.

As you suggest, this should be handled by software recognition or by a key combination like Shift/Alt + Fn (Arrow) + ".

 

[EskeRahn 5,427]

Parhelion wrote:

raphaelcno

 

Since you mentioned the quotation mark, how are you gonig to handle the lowercase quotation mark?

 

It’s usually a matter of software recognising which one is necessary, so I would like the software to put „ “ depending on whether there has been one before, with the possibility to alter for example by highlighting with CAPS + Arrow and Sym (and/or touchscreen action).

If the lowercase quotation mark („) does not exist on the standard desktop keyboard, it will probably not be present on the phone keyboard either.

 

As you suggest, this should be handled by software recognition or by a key combination like Shift/Alt + Fn (Arrow) + “.

 

Usually it is the editor you are using that are handling any smart substitutions. e.g. these (enlarged)

»« , “” or „‟ (the last pair u201E u201F looks a bit odd in some fonts though)

similar as smileys substituted by emoticons.

[elvissteinjr 359]

To add to my previous post, in the last tweet Liangchen put out, you see the current QWERTY layout again. It has standard capitalization instead of all lower case as on the "final" QWERTZ layout. I said before that it's a design decision but the more I look at it I wonder why it has to be different. The German-centric layout is the one where I'd expect the opposite perhaps (since we capitalize all nouns and stuff).

 

I think suddenly calling the layout done and seemingly not looking at this further was a mistake. We have to end somewhere as I said before, but there really seem to be some issues left that need addressing (the apostrophe in particular).

[raphaelcno 21]

To add to my previous post, in the last tweet Liangchen put out, you see the current QWERTY layout again. It has standard capitalization instead of all lower case as on the “final” QWERTZ layout. I said before that it’s a design decision but the more I look at it I wonder why it has to be different. The German-centric layout is the one where I’d expect the opposite perhaps (since we capitalize all nouns and stuff).

Changing "Strg" to "strg" was based on comments from other users, but if there are more users who prefer "Strg", it may be changed back.

 

[raphaelcno 21]

Regarding the positioning of symbols I like raphaelcno’s version a lot, but would suggest swapping ‘ to the ä key and # to the ü key, as I need ‘ way more often. Or are there arguments for the current placement?

On the desktop keyboard, the key between Ä and Enter has # as main symbol and ' as second symbol. This key does not exist on the phone keyboard, so it is necessary to move these two symbols to other keys. The main symbol (#) is placed nearest its original place (that means on Ä), and the second symbol (') is placed on the second nearest key (that means on Ö).

It is difficult to define the layout based on individual needs, so the layout should be chosen so that it is as close as possible to the desktop keyboard.

 

[raphaelcno 21]

elvissteinjr wrote:

To add to my previous post, in the last tweet Liangchen put out, you see the current QWERTY layout again. It has standard capitalization instead of all lower case as on the “final” QWERTZ layout. I said before that it’s a design decision but the more I look at it I wonder why it has to be different. The German-centric layout is the one where I’d expect the opposite perhaps (since we capitalize all nouns and stuff).

Changing “Strg” to “strg” was based on comments from other users, but if there are more users who prefer “Strg”, it may be changed back.

 

I propose a vote:

- Alternative 1: strg / entf / esc / alt / sym

- Alternative 2: Strg / Entf / Esc / Alt / Sym

- Alternative 3: STRG / ENTF / ESC / ALT / SYM

- Alternative 4: Ctrl / Del / Esc / Alt / Sym

 

I’d still vote for having the degree symbol ° on there somewhere, but we’ve agreed it’s not that critical I suppose.

 

I propose a vote for the degree symbol ° (Alt+0176):

- Alternative 11: No symbol on the keyboard

- Alternative 12: Symbol on the R key

- Alternative 13: Symbol on the A key

- Aklternative 14: Symbol on another key

 

I vote for alternative 4 (Ctrl) and 12 ®.

 

[EskeRahn 5,427]

I propose a vote:

 

What about casting "priorities" rather than "votes"

 

My priorities as not German should not count. But personally I would prioritise: 4,2,1,3, and does not really care if the degree is printed or not (nor where if)