Design the QWERTZ layout

[Keyahnig 80]

Honestly I don't think anyone would be bothered if they just used the English abbreviations (like "ctrl" instead of "strg"). That's how it's done on the Swiss layout and I feel like nobody even notices that it's different from the German one. Might be less confusing for non-German people too.

[EskeRahn 5,459]

Honestly I don’t think anyone would be bothered if they just used the English abbreviations (like “ctrl” instead of “strg”). That’s how it’s done on the Swiss layout and I feel like nobody even notices that it’s different from the German one. Might be less confusing for non-German people too.

 

A great idea in my book. As previously described this layout would only be a few keys away from the ones used in Sweden/Norway/Finland/Denmark, and those few could easily be remembered by hart. So would be better than the standard left-shifted QWERTY for me and others in the Scandinavian countries too I believe. And the English abbreviations are what we are used to see. I don't think I have ever seen a PC-keyboard with words/abbreviations in either of the Scandinavian languages. (Though some Swedish have the down arrow for CapsLock)

[dreamflasher 120]

My native language is German, I personally wouldn't be bothered having ctrl instead of strg, I think most people wouldn't mind, but it's not on me to speak for them and I could be wrong.

[daxxy 2]

This guy’s change makes no sense to me. He moved # to FN+3 and removed § for no reason. This deviates from QWERTZ and I don’t see why you would do that, especially removing a symbol.

 

I think you're mixing up the versions. Liangchen's version had # on FN+3, sailfishmods/@xcvpx put § back on there and moved # to FN+Ä.

 

I agree that @xcvpx's version is an improvement.

 

Building on that, I think the PC QWERTZ assignment of "Shift+< is >" is more natural than "FN+< is >", but that's nitpicking.

 

More importantly: Currently the key next to backspace is the grave accent (`). This is inconsistent with PC QWERTZ, where the acute accent (´) is assigned to that key, and Shift+´is `. This is definitely unexpected (though I could see the change being helpful for people working with programming/shell languages where the grave accent, or backtick, has meaning but the acute accent doesn't). Either way, how would you get an acute accent(ed letter) on FX QWERTZ? Shift+`?

[elvissteinjr 359]

I think you’re mixing up the versions. Liangchen’s version had # on FN+3, sailfishmods/@xcvpx put § back on there and moved # to FN+Ä.

 

I agree that @xcvpx’s version is an improvement.

Oh, oops. In this case "that guy" is Liangchen I suppose... okay I messed up there.

It's also odd how I didn't notice that on the other layout images posted here. I kinda just assumed all symbols were in the expected spot since most were and we've been talking about sticking close to PC QWERTZ the whole time.

 

That version is better then indeed, yeah.

[raphaelcno 21]

Here is a modified layout, based on the last comments.

 

Variant with German "strg"/"entf":

[attachment file=F(x) - QWERTZ-201904092-1 - 2019-04-15_RCa - strg.png]

 

Variant with English "Ctrl"/"Del":

[attachment file=F(x) - QWERTZ-201904092-1 - 2019-04-16_RCa - Ctrl.png]

 

Which variant is best?

[TeZtdevice 296]

+1 German

("strg" / "entf" or "STRG" / "ENTF")

[Doktor Oswaldo 904]

doktor.oswaldo wrote:

One question to the suggested Layout: Why is the order of the brackets like that: { [ ] } and not like thath { } [ ].

 

It is not a big problem but seems rather special.

Below a crop from a PC QWERTZ keyboards, so it is to get close to that.

 

Interesting, in the US, Swiss and German Layout ( and ) are right next to each other (Of course not on the same keys, that would made it to easy to switch).

The reason I ask is, because I believe a lot of people insert both braces after each other and then use the back key to get inside it (You see that a lot in programming at least). This is not a productive thing to do so it isn't to bad to make it harder ;-).

 

[Jacob_S 128]

As the layout seems to be mainly for German users and only additionally for Scandic/Swiss etc. I would favor choosing German Strg/Entf etc., especially as some others already said they don't really mind what's printed there.

But I have to admit that's easy to say as a German ;)

As you can see above I personally prefer Strg over STRG/strg but that's one of the less important things.

 

Regarding the positioning of symbols I like raphaelcno's version a lot, but would suggest swapping ' to the ä key and # to the ü key, as I need ' way more often. Or are there arguments for the current placement?

[EskeRahn 5,459]

As the layout seems to be mainly for German users and only additionally for Scandic/Swiss etc. I would favor choosing German Strg/Entf etc., especially as some others already said they don’t really mind what’s printed there.

But I have to admit that’s easy to say as a German ;)

 

The whole point in this thread is that people tell what would be the best qwertZ keyboard for them, so we should listen to you. That people of other nationalities (like me) might find it closer to what they want than the US qwertY, I would say is just a bonus.

 

Have we heard any voices from Austria in here? Do they use the exact same layout as in Germany, or does it (like Swiss) have some differences?

 

This claims that it is the same for Germany and Austria AND displays the differences with the one for Switzerland&Luxembourg according to IBM. The difference mainly being the later ease the use of French. Plus Brackets, Braces and other symbols placed differently

 

I early on suggested an 'open' layout, intended to be used not as a general international keyboard, but as a base for national layouts usable in many countries, with prints of the national letters 'missing' on a few keys, so we would have to remember these few by hart (or write on the keys manually)

[Keyahnig 80]

As far as I know Austrians use the same layout as Germans.

[Doktor Oswaldo 904]

Jacob_S wrote:

As the layout seems to be mainly for German users and only additionally for Scandic/Swiss etc. I would favor choosing German Strg/Entf etc., especially as some others already said they don’t really mind what’s printed there.

 

But I have to admit that’s easy to say as a German ;)

The whole point in this thread is that people tell what would be the best qwertZ keyboard for them, so we should listen to you. That people of other nationalities (like me) might find it closer to what they want than the US qwertY, I would say is just a bonus.

 

Have we heard any voices from Austria in here? Do they use the exact same layout as in Germany, or does it (like Swiss) have some differences?

 

This claims that it is the same for Germany and Austria AND displays the differences with the one for Switzerland&Luxembourg according to IBM. The difference mainly being the later ease the use of French. Plus Brackets, Braces and other symbols placed differently

 

I early on suggested an ‘open’ layout, intended to be used not as a general international keyboard, but as a base for national layouts usable in many countries, with prints of the national letters ‘missing’ on a few keys, so we would have to remember these few by hart (or write on the keys manually)

 

As a Swiss I have to admit. We are a really small market. And Switzerland is the iPhone country per excellence. So while I would love to have a real swiss layout to choose from it is probably not worth the struggle out of a business perspective. I think it is better to make a Layout which fits one market perfectly then try to blend all possible qwertz layouts together. Yes some people might be of the loosing side. But the worst thing for the phone would be when everybody says: "Yes the keyboard is good, but has a strange layout". It is way more acceptable if someone says "Yes it is good, it has the US-Layout tough". This has never stopped early-adopters.

[EskeRahn 5,459]

...It is way more acceptable if someone says “Yes it is good, it has the US-Layout tough”. This has never stopped early-adopters.

 

Feel exactly the same, especially if it is the print only, and we can select a national layout if we so choose. So we can choose between using the standard layout printed, but not perfectly fitting, or a national layout slightly different from the printed.

 

I would say that more than 90% of the time I use my Danish-printed PC-keyboard with a logic US-layout, primarily to get to brackets and braces easily for coding.(but also since there were no Danish layout for the first computers I used, I made my own keyboard driver back then...)

[Zimeon 11]

Pretty much the opposite for me, 99% of the time I use Scandinavian layout and only when there's some compability issues i revert to US layout. Anyway, hope to get some official answer what the options will be, if there will be any.

[EskeRahn 5,459]

Pretty much the opposite for me, 99% of the time I use Scandinavian layout and only when there’s some compability issues i revert to US layout. Anyway, hope to get some official answer what the options will be, if there will be any.

 

Don't get me wrong, my point was that it is not that important, what is actually printed on the key, as long as it is not way off. I mean a Dvorak print or the shifted QWERTY print would be problematic used with Danish layout. But anything roughly close would work with Danish for me. And the suggested QWERTZ is certainly close enough for me :) - But sure I would prefer a Scandinavian print.

[dreamflasher 120]

The absolutely best would have been to find a way for people to print their own layout :D I have no clue how this production processes work, but if one would get the US layout per default, and you can pay another 10usd for your customized layout, gosh!

[EskeRahn 5,459]

The absolutely best would have been to find a way for people to print their own layout :D I have no clue how this production processes work, but if one would get the US layout per default, and you can pay another 10usd for your customized layout, gosh!

 

Now THAT would be awresome, though I doubt $10 could cover the cost of handling them individually...

Continuing on the customization wishes, imagine 3D-prints in a suitable partly transparent elastic material...

[jcp 0]

How is the demand for other keyboard layout assessed? Will there be a vote open on this forum for the different layouts?

I have not seen thread in this forum for other options than the "German QWERTZ". Why "German" by the way? I see on this thread users voicing interest for Scandivian layout but also AZERTY layout, and Spanish. QWERTZ could also be the Swiss QWERTZ. I personnally believe it is a good compromise between the German QWERTZ and French AZERTY options.

[jcp 0]

EskeRahn wrote:

Jacob_S wrote:

As the layout seems to be mainly for German users and only additionally for Scandic/Swiss etc. I would favor choosing German Strg/Entf etc., especially as some others already said they don’t really mind what’s printed there.

 

But I have to admit that’s easy to say as a German ;)

 

The whole point in this thread is that people tell what would be the best qwertZ keyboard for them, so we should listen to you. That people of other nationalities (like me) might find it closer to what they want than the US qwertY, I would say is just a bonus.

 

Have we heard any voices from Austria in here? Do they use the exact same layout as in Germany, or does it (like Swiss) have some differences?

 

This

claims that it is the same for Germany and Austria AND displays the differences with the one for Switzerland&Luxembourg according to IBM. The difference mainly being the later ease the use of French. Plus Brackets, Braces and other symbols placed differently

 

I early on suggested an ‘open’ layout, intended to be used not as a general international keyboard, but as a base for national layouts usable in many countries, with prints of the national letters ‘missing’ on a few keys, so we would have to remember these few by hart (or write on the keys manually)

As a Swiss I have to admit. We are a really small market. And Switzerland is the iPhone country per excellence. So while I would love to have a real swiss layout to choose from it is probably not worth the struggle out of a business perspective. I think it is better to make a Layout which fits one market perfectly then try to blend all possible qwertz layouts together. Yes some people might be of the loosing side. But the worst thing for the phone would be when everybody says: “Yes the keyboard is good, but has a strange layout”. It is way more acceptable if someone says “Yes it is good, it has the US-Layout tough”. This has never stopped early-adopters.

 

I am personally using a Swiss keyboard on my PC for the following reason: I do extensive usage of English, French and German. Although you are right in saying the Swiss market is a niche, the Swiss layout is a good response to the needs of French and German communities. Releasing a Swiss QWERTZ would allow Fxtec to gain access to a larger market.

At the moment what stops me ordering is the lack of clarity on the keyboard layout. For me one important advantage of the hardware keyboard over the virtual screen keyboard is indeed an easy access to all these special characters (symbols and accentuated letters).

 

[EskeRahn 5,459]

I am personally using a Swiss keyboard on my PC for the following reason: I do extensive usage of English, French and German. Although you are right in saying the Swiss market is a niche, the Swiss layout is a good response to the needs of French and German communities. Releasing a Swiss QWERTZ would allow Fxtec to gain access to a larger market.

At the moment what stops me ordering is the lack of clarity on the keyboard layout. For me one important advantage of the hardware keyboard over the virtual screen keyboard is indeed an easy access to all these special characters (symbols and accentuated letters).

 

I'm quite sure that we will be able to have the layout we want software-wise, including all kind of special symbols and nationally bound letters. So the discussion here is merely on what should be printed on the keys.

 

It is an interesting idea if a Swiss layout could be a compromise that is acceptable to several nationalities.

[elvissteinjr 359]

So there's been some ideas floating around since the last official version posted here, some which I disagree with, some which are okay.

Might sound selfish, but I'd personally prefer a German centered QWERTZ layout with little to no symbols from other layouts mixed in. Software layout can be whatever. This is about the labels.

 

So what's the state of the official layout right now? What's the deadline on it?

We need to be done with this at some point I suppose and perhaps also get some additional pointers in regards what's actually up to discussion right now and decided on that.

[Doktor Oswaldo 904]

doktor.oswaldo wrote:

EskeRahn wrote:

Jacob_S wrote:

As the layout seems to be mainly for German users and only additionally for Scandic/Swiss etc. I would favor choosing German Strg/Entf etc., especially as some others already said they don’t really mind what’s printed there.

 

But I have to admit that’s easy to say as a German ;)

 

The whole point in this thread is that people tell what would be the best qwertZ keyboard for them, so we should listen to you. That people of other nationalities (like me) might find it closer to what they want than the US qwertY, I would say is just a bonus.

 

Have we heard any voices from Austria in here? Do they use the exact same layout as in Germany, or does it (like Swiss) have some differences?

 

This

claims that it is the same for Germany and Austria AND displays the differences with the one for Switzerland&Luxembourg according to IBM. The difference mainly being the later ease the use of French. Plus Brackets, Braces and other symbols placed differently

 

I early on suggested an ‘open’ layout, intended to be used not as a general international keyboard, but as a base for national layouts usable in many countries, with prints of the national letters ‘missing’ on a few keys, so we would have to remember these few by hart (or write on the keys manually)

 

As a Swiss I have to admit. We are a really small market. And Switzerland is the iPhone country per excellence. So while I would love to have a real swiss layout to choose from it is probably not worth the struggle out of a business perspective. I think it is better to make a Layout which fits one market perfectly then try to blend all possible qwertz layouts together. Yes some people might be of the loosing side. But the worst thing for the phone would be when everybody says: “Yes the keyboard is good, but has a strange layout”. It is way more acceptable if someone says “Yes it is good, it has the US-Layout tough”. This has never stopped early-adopters.

I am personally using a Swiss keyboard on my PC for the following reason: I do extensive usage of English, French and German. Although you are right in saying the Swiss market is a niche, the Swiss layout is a good response to the needs of French and German communities. Releasing a Swiss QWERTZ would allow Fxtec to gain access to a larger market.

 

At the moment what stops me ordering is the lack of clarity on the keyboard layout. For me one important advantage of the hardware keyboard over the virtual screen keyboard is indeed an easy access to all these special characters (symbols and accentuated letters).

 

I mean if everybody wants a Swiss layout go on. But there is no need to get access to the markets. The US-International Keyboard handles German/Swiss-German/French/English already perfectly (and Spanish and some Scandinavian stuff). If other people can get used to the Swiss layout it should be no problem as a Swiss to get used to the US-International layout. Yes it may be a little slower to type umlauts. But it seems stupid to make a niche like Switzerland happy and everybody else has to get used to it.

From a business perspective it would be the cleverest to look at the pre-orders, pick the country with the most and make a layout as close to the default as possible for that country (well the potential size of the country will be important too. So again Switzerland isn't the best choice).

This is the market where most people will see the phone. A native layout will be important in that. If everybody has to say: "Well the layout is unusual but you get used to it" it will be bad advertisement. Have a look at how Dvorak has played out outside of the tech-community.

[jcp 0]

jcp wrote:

I am personally using a Swiss keyboard on my PC for the following reason: I do extensive usage of English, French and German. Although you are right in saying the Swiss market is a niche, the Swiss layout is a good response to the needs of French and German communities. Releasing a Swiss QWERTZ would allow Fxtec to gain access to a larger market.

 

At the moment what stops me ordering is the lack of clarity on the keyboard layout. For me one important advantage of the hardware keyboard over the virtual screen keyboard is indeed an easy access to all these special characters (symbols and accentuated letters).

I’m quite sure that we will be able to have the layout we want software-wise, including all kind of special symbols and nationally bound letters. So the discussion here is merely on what should be printed on the keys.

 

It is an interesting idea if a Swiss layout could be a compromise that is acceptable to several nationalities.

 

Here is a proposal of how a Swiss layout could look like:

 

[attachment file=keyboard-layout Swiss-1.png]

 

I have made minor modifications to the Swiss keyboard I have in front of me due to the fact the Pro1 keyboard has one key less next to the Return key (and to the right of the ä/à key). $ is moved to the Arrow+4 key. I kept the bracket settings from earlier proposal in this forum: this made me move the | key on Arrow+1. In this design £ ¬ ¢ ¦ are lost. If anyone need them there are still some Arrow + key left places (on 6, ¨ and umlaut keys).

You might also notice that ç and ß are not shown but I thought it could be accessed with Arrow + c (and Arrow + Shift + C for the upper case) and Arrow + s respectively. Similarly Arrow + m, Arrow + a and Arrow + o could give µ, æ and œ respectively. I did omit the printing as it seems natural places for the symbols and not to overload the keyboard. If anyone prefers it is printed I don't mind.

 

For the double keys ö/é, ä/à and ü/è, on a Swiss keyboard, the second letter is normally accessed with the Shift key. I would suggest the behaviour is changed slightly and the Shift + key gives the upper case for the accentuated letter as we would normally expect. The user would decide in options if the key is actually mapped to German letters with umlaut or French accentuated ones. Thanks DreamFlasher for the original idea.

I feel it is good the proposed alternative layout is actually printed on the key to make it easy to remember. In any keyboard layout (even replicating the desktop one) the user will have to get accustomed to it.

I am quite open to Scandinavian layout be printed on the save key for a third alternative.

 

What I like in this layout is the direct access to most used accentuated letters, direct access to ' character and modifier keys frequently used in French (^ and ¨).

For the rest I am quite open to changes. Has anyone other proposals?

 

[EskeRahn 5,459]

Here is a proposal of how a Swiss layout could look like:

 

keyboard-layout-Swiss-1

 

I have made minor modifications to the Swiss keyboard I have in front of me due to the fact the Pro1 keyboard has one key less next to the Return key (and to the right of the ä/à key). $ is moved to the Arrow+4 key. I kept the bracket settings from earlier proposal in this forum: this made me move the | key on Arrow+1. In this design £ ¬ ¢ ¦ are lost. If anyone need them there are still some Arrow + key left places (on 6, ¨ and umlaut keys).

You might also notice that ç and ß are not shown but I thought it could be accessed with Arrow + c (and Arrow + Shift + C for the upper case) and Arrow + s respectively. Similarly Arrow + m, Arrow + a and Arrow + o could give µ, æ and œ respectively. I did omit the printing as it seems natural places for the symbols and not to overload the keyboard. If anyone prefers it is printed I don’t mind.

 

For the double keys ö/é, ä/à and ü/è, on a Swiss keyboard, the second letter is normally accessed with the Shift key. I would suggest the behaviour is changed slightly and the Shift + key gives the upper case for the accentuated letter as we would normally expect. The user would decide in options if the key is actually mapped to German letters with umlaut or French accentuated ones. Thanks DreamFlasher for the original idea.

I feel it is good the proposed alternative layout is actually printed on the key to make it easy to remember. In any keyboard layout (even replicating the desktop one) the user will have to get accustomed to it.

I am quite open to Scandinavian layout be printed on the save key for a third alternative.

 

What I like in this layout is the direct access to most used accentuated letters, direct access to ‘ character and modifier keys frequently used in French (^ and ¨).

For the rest I am quite open to changes. Has anyone other proposals?

 

 

Personally I would prefer something like this over both the QWERTY and QWERTZ. I like the "Z/Y" print idea, an easy way to handle the difference.

 

(The actual BEHAVIOUR of the keys can easily be user selectable, no need to lock down to one common for all users)

[Keyahnig 80]

EskeRahn wrote:

jcp wrote:

I am personally using a Swiss keyboard on my PC for the following reason: I do extensive usage of English, French and German. Although you are right in saying the Swiss market is a niche, the Swiss layout is a good response to the needs of French and German communities. Releasing a Swiss QWERTZ would allow Fxtec to gain access to a larger market.

 

At the moment what stops me ordering is the lack of clarity on the keyboard layout. For me one important advantage of the hardware keyboard over the virtual screen keyboard is indeed an easy access to all these special characters (symbols and accentuated letters).

 

I’m quite sure that we will be able to have the layout we want software-wise, including all kind of special symbols and nationally bound letters. So the discussion here is merely on what should be

printed

on the keys.

 

It is an interesting idea if a Swiss layout could be a compromise that is acceptable to several nationalities.

Here is a proposal of how a Swiss layout could look like:

 

<span class="image-overlay overlay-type-image" style="left: -5px; top: 0px; overflow: hidden; display: block; height: 164px; width: 748px;"><span class="image-overlay-inside"></span></span>

 

Switzerland is such a small market. A Swiss-only layout wouldn't make any sense at all. I just want to be able to write "ö", "ä" and "ü". I'm already satisfied with any QWERTZ or US international layout. A Swiss layout wouldn't be a good compromise since no one else is used to it and some characters are quite uniquelly placed like "+" on the same key as "1" and "!" on the far right instead.

Hopefully there will be a way to map your buttons individually. Then you could map the 3 buttons on the right to "ö"/"é", "ä"/"à", "ü"/"è" or "Æ", "Ø", "Å" or whatever else you might want.