Cannot recommend this phone to anyone

[everlast4308 30]

@Khalid I understand and agree with many of your feelings here. It's frustrating, especially after such a long wait, to have so many things get in the way of usability. I hope it gets better for you. But, if not, FWIW you can probably sell with ease (maybe for profit, see thread on used prices I've been watching), these clackers are in high demand right now.

I do still struggle with my own Pro1 (like you), but it's actually really common for quality control to be on par with what you see here. In fact, I'm impressed FxTec has created something this stable and reliable. Here are some issues I've seen from countless other small device startups:

• no restore info / drivers (FxTec: we do have this)
• no support channels (FxTec: does have support, albeit small staff)
• no official community (FxTec: we are here! this is good!)
• poor build quality (FxTec: good build quality, keys aren't popping off, etc.)
• randomly bricks (FxTec: does not seem to, AFAIK)

Should this be remarkable? No. It should be normal. But we are in a "race-to-market" global economy, where Samsung can put out exploding batteries, Chevy can have zillions of recalls (especially on 1st model-year of a new gen), and video games can be released with ruinous bugs ("we'll patch it later"). Pre-orders, wait-lists, and crowd-funding campaigns only serve to skew this even more.

I'm just glad FxTec entered this kind of market, and delivered something actually usable and reliable, more on a "big company" standard of quality than their tiny company size should allow. I like to think they benefit from us tinkering, complaining, fixing, collaborating.

Thank you for posting here. All of us here wanna help if we can, and FxTec will keep getting better, through conversations like this! 😊

[Sero 89]

I can and would recommend this to people who want this phone and are willing to put in a bit of effort to customise it their way. Of course it should be great out of the box, but it isn't and if you really want this keyboard phone from this start-up company, you're going to need to reset your expectations and budge a little more than you would usually have to for any of the larger companies.

Still I think one of the few phones out there that justifies the price tag.

[pistikem 85]

i had to ask Fxtec recently to replace my screen (i suggested to pay for it) because the upper 16% became unresponsive to touch after which they promised to send me for free a replacement screen & installation video within in a few weeks.  i was quite happy with their response and added to my response letter to Fxtex the following few lines :

Quote

i feel bad that i cause extra costs to your young and vulnerable startup undertaking.  please, believe me that i stir the drums as much as possible for your Fxtec Pro1 product in the geeky high-tech world i work in here in Montréal !

i have my own experience (a little bit) what it means to start a company : it's incredibly and painfully difficult and one also needs a (metric) ton of unpredictable luck for that -  all my kudos to Fxtec !

[tdm 2,322]

@Khalid I'll refer you to a post that I made a bit over a week ago:

 

https://community.fxtec.com/topic/2809-after-a-solid-month-i-give-up-i-need-to-vent/?do=findComment&comment=45253

 

The tldr of it is that yes, FxTec nerfed the software and as a result they don't even really have control over the OTA contents or timing.  Big mistake?  Absolutely.  End of the world?  Not even close.  Software will improve over time and there are alternative ROMs to choose from.  Lineage, in particular, is now quite usable except for the notification light (which will be fixed in short order) and has even started to grow some features to accommodate the issues you raised such as edge touch sensitivity, etc.

 

Now, if you expected or wanted a nice polished package like you would get from a big company, well, sorry, ain't gonna happen.  FxTec is basically a two man show toiling hard to produce a quality piece of hardware that has been missing in the market for years.  They simply don't have that kind of resources.  So you should probably sell the phone to someone on this forum and find a nice shiny iGalaxyThing to use.

 

[netman 1,424]

On 3/1/2020 at 11:32 AM, Khalid said:

Keyboard issues

 

WHERE DO I EVEN START?! The one job the pro1 had, it fails MISERABLY. Had this one been done right, I'd have happily endured the above two issues if it weren't for this.

• Keyboard ignores 2nd press if already holding another key. It doesn't sound like a problem untl yur typng strts to look likethis!
• some keys like to repeat if pressed once. not a good look when your friend's first typing test on this phone was "I'mmmmmmmmm typing on the pro1"
• the 7yhb column of keys do not work if they were the first key to be pressed after waking the phone. if someone says hello, you can't even say hello back because the H key isnt working until you press another key.

today is the day, latest ota fixes all these 🙂

[glic 8]

On 3/1/2020 at 3:16 PM, divstar said:

Honestly, I just think you wanted to vent. So it's alright. While the phone indeed does have some mistakes, most of them can be worked around and if you want a proper phone with a keyboard - the pro1 is currently as good as it gets (I still have my BB Priv, but due to a hardware lock I cannot root it and so I'd have to use an OS, which is heavily outdated).

I also paid about 720€ and while some errors do annoy me a bit, I use this phone as my daily driver and it works as expected.

While venting is okay, you don't even seem to be interested in fixing the issues you have with the phone. So not recommending the phone to anyone just because you have issues you do not want to resolve is a bit weird to say the least.

It sure is your right and your choice and if you had expected the phone to be completely flawless, you probably should have waited another year or the pro2 if it is ever going to happen - or pick some keyboardless phone (though I'd argue those do have their problems,too).

To be fair, there are more than these things, that OP posted and that are annoying. I just don't have time to compile them all - clearly they are staying with Pro1.

0. Information on sticker with IMEI information very quickly went away.

1. Placement of power button - it would not be fair to call it power button, as Nokia N97(with the same hinges) had lock button, so it is power/lock button, but I would rather prefer lock/power button to be near audio jack. Placement of lock/power button is not great when using with pouch, that came with phone, as screen turns on, when inserting phone there. Well, on Samsung Note lock button is on left corner and it was great for me, though, Samsung Note had physical button for returning and I was struggling hard with Android option initially, as it requires 2 tasks every time to go back.

It makes sense only if you are left-handed user only, but I am using both hands when on phone. Anyway, with current placement this is mainly issue with Android, but might be more usable with Sailfish, but Sailfish probably won't come soon. So, that for me is on hold, as I don't care for Android.

2. Curved screen - I am using this phone with e-ticket app on a bus - it doesn't help, that I have to be very careful and hold it so it doesn't drop, and because of rounded edges of screen I have started Camera countless times. Not really great for rush hour. I understand, that there can be software workaround to disable screen sensitivity for edges completely for some apps, but this is executive level thinking, that placed those curved edges on this phone(and did not thought about software fix) - no idea, maybe they were the only ones available or that was decision to go with the flow. Anyway, it seems, that the idea for this phone was that it will be used with open keyboard only, which is impossible in many different scenarios in real life.

Nokia N97 had option to attack string - this phone might have benefited from that as well - not sure if that is issue with patents or some other things, but I have feeling that this phone is very fragile, when leaving home.

3. There are keyboard issues. Technical, but there are also some issues, that prevent me using it, as I am not native English user and I do send sms and chats in my native language - even in games. English users might be oblivious about that Nokia with the same keyboard hinges provided easy native language symbols with keyboard and it was really easy to do - and this is the fact that Pro1 is still not comparable to that ease of what Nokia N97 provided for other language users of Latin alphabet(with English keyboard).

I came to Pro1 from Samsung Note 3 with UI and bunch of software over ugly default Android interface which I avoided for years. To be fair, I was not prepared to this abomination of Android(my hate is mainly about Java) - it has gotten better, but still. I really wish, that Pro1 provided their own software that fixed those issues, or allowed configuration of phone without knowledge of Android or any other OS for that reason(not sure if they have big team to deal with all of this). It is not like Pro1 has gone out with different hardware and compatibility for different Androids - so far there is only one phone. There are plenty of companies who provide utility apps for many more phone models - and they work brilliantly.

 

PS There seems, that answer to what OP has posted is either shut up and enjoy phone or accept some solution that does not work. Guys, if that is your only answer, just don't pollute this post - there must be someone who will love Pro1 much more than you do and look on these issues with opportunity to create a working solution. How you don't care for others, is not the answer that you need either. This is about frustrated user and expectations and reality with this phone are not on equal level - and that's a fact. It can be changed, but honestly - at this stage I would not recommend this phone to me either - unless some issues are fixed first. Currently it is just an investment in a toy(for me selling point was Sailfish OS promise, which will take more time than I thought), that is not at the best capacity - there is keyboard exclusivity(not of great use for nonnative English users), but that's about it. There is also that F(x)tec is new company and you would expect that there would be issues and that is reality for beginners in any field, but IMO honest feedback about all issues would always do more good, than trying to silence them, as that is not solution for all unhappy customers and company.

Edited March 31, 2020 by glic
back button

[EskeRahn 5,464]

4 hours ago, glic said:

PS There seems, that answer to what OP has posted is either shut up and enjoy phone or accept some solution that does not work. Guys, if that is your only answer, just don't pollute this post - there must be someone who will love Pro1 much more than you do and look on these issues with opportunity to create a working solution. How you don't care for others, is not the answer that you need either. This is about frustrated user and expectations and reality with this phone are not on equal level - and that's a fact. It can be changed, but honestly - at this stage I would not recommend this phone to me either - unless some issues are fixed first. Currently it is just an investment in a toy(for me selling point was Sailfish OS promise, which will take more time than I thought), that is not at the best capacity - there is keyboard exclusivity(not of great use for nonnative English users), but that's about it. There is also that F(x)tec is new company and you would expect that there would be issues and that is reality for beginners in any field, but IMO honest feedback about all issues would always do more good, than trying to silence them, as that is not solution for all unhappy customers and company.

As I replied to the OP here:
highly recommend this phone, but not to everyone...

Sure this phone does not fit anyone. Show me a single thing that does, being electronic or anything else. Well except perhaps pure fresh water for drinking...

And there is NO device out there (exist or announced planned) that come even close to being nearer what I would wish for. That is not to say that it is perfect. And I can easily find individual things that I would prefer from other devices.
The main issue for me was the placement of the fingerprint reader, but when put in a flip case, that disappears. But sure I would prefer a Pro2 to have it in the display.

Should I recommend a single cheap change to a "Pro1+" it would be to add some grooves in the frame below the screen above the fingerprint reader. This would make lifting the back edge even easier, and you can activate the fingerprint and lift open in one go (I added a tiny piece of high friction tape, and do it all the time, but without a flip case that would be a nuisance in and out of a pocket, groves would not have that problem)

Usage patterns are always different between users, and luckily NONE of the remaining issues are having any significant impact on my daily usage. But sure for others they could be total deal-breakers.

Most of the practical usage issues I had was fixed by installing FinQwerty by @Anssi Hannula. And SwiftKey brought  additional features like word-prediction to the hardware keyboard. And finally the 0.4 version of a tool by @Slion improved the flip case experience with an added magnet in the case (I don't use any of the other&newer features).

[Slion 1,201]

2 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

don't use any of the other&newer features

What's wrong with them? You can still use the latest version and just ignore or disable the features you don't need for now. Still using an older version is a valid option too if you really can't stand the latest one 🙂

Edited March 31, 2020 by Slion

[EskeRahn 5,464]

1 hour ago, Slion said:

What's wrong with them? You can still use the latest version and just ignore or disable the features you don't need for now. Still using an older version is a valid option too if you really can't stand the latest one 🙂

Sorry, too hastily written should have been "I don't....", not at all meant as a suggestion that others should not, I just only need a corner of your toolbox.

[divstar 164]

On 3/31/2020 at 7:06 PM, glic said:

To be fair, there are more than these things, that OP posted and that are annoying. I just don't have time to compile them all - clearly they are staying with Pro1.

0. Information on sticker with IMEI information very quickly went away.

1. Placement of power button - it would not be fair to call it power button, as Nokia N97(with the same hinges) had lock button, so it is power/lock button, but I would rather prefer lock/power button to be near audio jack. Placement of lock/power button is not great when using with pouch, that came with phone, as screen turns on, when inserting phone there. Well, on Samsung Note lock button is on left corner and it was great for me, though, Samsung Note had physical button for returning and I was struggling hard with Android option initially, as it requires 2 tasks every time to go back.

It makes sense only if you are left-handed user only, but I am using both hands when on phone. Anyway, with current placement this is mainly issue with Android, but might be more usable with Sailfish, but Sailfish probably won't come soon. So, that for me is on hold, as I don't care for Android.

2. Curved screen - I am using this phone with e-ticket app on a bus - it doesn't help, that I have to be very careful and hold it so it doesn't drop, and because of rounded edges of screen I have started Camera countless times. Not really great for rush hour. I understand, that there can be software workaround to disable screen sensitivity for edges completely for some apps, but this is executive level thinking, that placed those curved edges on this phone(and did not thought about software fix) - no idea, maybe they were the only ones available or that was decision to go with the flow. Anyway, it seems, that the idea for this phone was that it will be used with open keyboard only, which is impossible in many different scenarios in real life.

Nokia N97 had option to attack string - this phone might have benefited from that as well - not sure if that is issue with patents or some other things, but I have feeling that this phone is very fragile, when leaving home.

3. There are keyboard issues. Technical, but there are also some issues, that prevent me using it, as I am not native English user and I do send sms and chats in my native language - even in games. English users might be oblivious about that Nokia with the same keyboard hinges provided easy native language symbols with keyboard and it was really easy to do - and this is the fact that Pro1 is still not comparable to that ease of what Nokia N97 provided for other language users of Latin alphabet(with English keyboard).

I came to Pro1 from Samsung Note 3 with UI and bunch of software over ugly default Android interface which I avoided for years. To be fair, I was not prepared to this abomination of Android(my hate is mainly about Java) - it has gotten better, but still. I really wish, that Pro1 provided their own software that fixed those issues, or allowed configuration of phone without knowledge of Android or any other OS for that reason(not sure if they have big team to deal with all of this). It is not like Pro1 has gone out with different hardware and compatibility for different Androids - so far there is only one phone. There are plenty of companies who provide utility apps for many more phone models - and they work brilliantly.

 

PS There seems, that answer to what OP has posted is either shut up and enjoy phone or accept some solution that does not work. Guys, if that is your only answer, just don't pollute this post - there must be someone who will love Pro1 much more than you do and look on these issues with opportunity to create a working solution. How you don't care for others, is not the answer that you need either. This is about frustrated user and expectations and reality with this phone are not on equal level - and that's a fact. It can be changed, but honestly - at this stage I would not recommend this phone to me either - unless some issues are fixed first. Currently it is just an investment in a toy(for me selling point was Sailfish OS promise, which will take more time than I thought), that is not at the best capacity - there is keyboard exclusivity(not of great use for nonnative English users), but that's about it. There is also that F(x)tec is new company and you would expect that there would be issues and that is reality for beginners in any field, but IMO honest feedback about all issues would always do more good, than trying to silence them, as that is not solution for all unhappy customers and company.

You just did so - pollute the thread that is.

Placement of buttons and your unwillingness to install an app to prevent round edges from responding is your personal preference.

Same goes to the bloatware you call "UI". Anything other than stock android with the possibility to install your own launcher sucks in my eyes.

Fixing errors without the knowledge of software is generally next to impossible if they are software issues. That's like wanting to handle lawsuits against you yourself: you can do it, but if you don't know your way around the laws, you won't really get anywhere.

Your hatred for Java is your personal opinion, which you cannot prove to be right (nor can I prove it to be wrong, because you offer just that: your opinion, no arguments or anything worth discussing).

Brilliantly working 3rd-party software utilities? Are you kidding me? Also even if: how many of those are start-ups doing everything they can to deliver their first hardware product? Right... thought so...

Also yes: the keyboard has issues. What are the alternatives, that don't have these or similar issues? What are the alterntives to the pro1 in general? And I mean those that actually perform quite alright compared to the shitty MediaTek SoCs? Thought so.

You don't recommend this phone? Fine. Just wait a year or so and most of the real bugs are going to be fixed. No one forces you to buy it with the first wave and if you did, you should have thought before doing so. If you don't have any noteworthy technical expertise, you probably should have waited longer.

But as I suggested: venting without arguments (except those basically reading: I don't want to or can't fix anything myself) is just a matter of opinion. It's fine, but you have to remember you are just venting.

 

[Rob. S. 1,663]

11 hours ago, divstar said:

Your hatred for Java is your personal opinion, which you cannot prove to be right (nor can I prove it to be wrong, because you offer just that: your opinion, no arguments or anything worth discussing).

I have no idea why anyone should "hate" Java (even if we would suppose for the matter of discussion that hatred was a legitimate emotion, which I think it is not), except perhaps when they have to do software development with it, but even then there would many worse choices. And even if someone would have to do Android development, there would be alternatives to Java, too, like Kotlin, or even Scala (which I think is one of the most interesting newer languages around). If he didn't mean java, but the JVM or what Android uses for it (Dalvik or now ART), I cannot really see what's the problem, either.

[adam.c.r.roman 25]

My Pro1 has been sitting in the box since I got it in January, hoping, praying that the horrible multi-key keyboard issue gets fixed. After about another 6 weeks, I took it out tonight, and there is still no software update that fixes it. I'm a virtuoso musician and lightning-fast typist that simply can't use this device as it is because it doesn't respond correctly if the last key doesn't get released before the next key is pressed, which is an absolutely unacceptable problem.  Try this... Hold the letter A and then quickly press every other key and see if it got the next letter correctly. Then try this on a slider from 10 years ago, like on my fav, the Samsung Moment, SPH-M900. This may seem like a minor glitch, but if you type like me, it's one of the most major problems that can exist, and it renders this fine piece of hardware absolutely unusable, because I can't get my thoughts down when I type. I want to love this phone and respect the incredible amount of work that went into it. Instead, I'm constantly infuriated that the backspace key is the key I have to use the most, second only to the spacebar, with my normal fast and flawless typing.

I am a software developer that has programed low-level firmware keyboard drivers that support multiple keypresses. I informed the company of this, practically begging to fix this myself, as I believe the problem to be in the microcontroller that actually scans the keyboard, not in the Android software itself.  I can't confirm this as of yet because I received no response about gaining access to the firmware code.

Can anybody point me in the right direction to fix this code and make this phone usable for myself and anybody else that is a seriously fast typist? I don't know much Linux, but I can and will fix this problem if somebody out there can save me the time and frustration of finding all the resources needed, if they are all actually available. Please help me to make this phone great, because it doesn't seem like anybody else has my standards and willingness to tackle the problem 100%. Thanks.

 

[elvissteinjr 359]

The issues you're talking about should be fixed in OTA update 2020-03-06. I have not had my Pro1 for almost 2 months now so I can't confirm myself, but from what I've read it should be fine now.

There have been two keyboard driver programming efforts from the community already, one of which ended up in the official system update (dunno which though). You can also install Lineage if you want, which has had keyboard fixes for even longer already.

[adam.c.r.roman 25]

elvissteinjr, I very much appreciate that info. But the latest update did not fix the keyboard issue as I described. Does anyone know if the source code for the keyboard microcontroller is available to be modified, and if so, where to find it, as I believe it is not reporting key events correctly to the OS, therefore no OS workarounds will make the Pro1 usable for serious typists. If it's not available, we'll have to beat it out of Liangchen so I can fix it, lol. Please, let's get this thing right!!!!

Edited April 19, 2020 by adam.c.r.roman
Oops

[Slion 1,201]

3 hours ago, adam.c.r.roman said:

Hold the letter A and then quickly press every other key and see if it got the next letter correctly.

asdfghjkl'

That's looking good here.
I got the above by holding down 'a' and then sliding a finger across that keyboard row. 
Could you please describe how to exactly reproduce your problem?

[adam.c.r.roman 25]

I admit, this is Very strange. That actually does work. When I performed that test 2 months ago, it certainly did not work at all after updating the software, so back in the box it went. Today when I took it back out, I immediately looked for a software update, and there were none, so back in the box it went again, because how could anything be different?

That test actually works now, yet no software update was performed. How could that be????

But I have found a similar keyboard issue which is reminiscent of the previous issue, but with 2 keys held down, not one...

Try holding A and S simultaneously and then press other keys. You'll notice that some keys work and some don't. If you hold down Q and A, even less keys work, especially those on the left side. While I admit this is not an issue for regular typing, it could be a serious issue for gaming in some control mappings.

I do apologize for not testing this thoroughly enough this time around, but seriously, how could this drastically improve without a software update? Any idea??

[peter.s.fidelman 54]

21 minutes ago, adam.c.r.roman said:

But I have found a similar keyboard issue which is reminiscent of the previous issue, but with 2 keys held down, not one...

Try holding A and S simultaneously and then press other keys. You'll notice that some keys work and some don't. If you hold down Q and A, even less keys work, especially those on the left side. While I admit this is not an issue for regular typing, it could be a serious issue for gaming in some control mappings.

You're talking about N-Key rollover, which many desktops don't even support.

My advice -- as a fellow musician and fast-typist -- would be to play with the Pro1 in its present state and see what everyday problems you encounter.  I haven't had problems with the keyboard since the OTA upgrade in early March.  The only typos come from my own mistakes.

Edited April 19, 2020 by peter.s.fidelman

[adam.c.r.roman 25]

Thanks for the replies Peter and Slion, I wish I knew how the heck this got remedied without an update and the power off for 6+ weeks. Could I have forgotten to reboot and try again after the last update?! (I thought that was automatic.) Can't imagine that, but anything's possible. So glad I don't have to write keyboard code myself. Apologies, this Keyboard Mod backer is finally a fan after 2 1/2 years. 

 

[michael.bosscha 142]

Hmmm... I held down a+s and after that started going with my finger over the keyboard. It worked, even though I got a string of s's first. But that might be because my finger wasn't pressing it down correctly, registering a new press every so often. Works like a charm though. I do understand where your anxiety comes from though, as I had some keyboard problems myself in the beginning as well. But even the missing spacebar presses were fixed by that OTA. What a wonder of modern technology...

[EskeRahn 5,464]

4 hours ago, adam.c.r.roman said:

Thanks for the replies Peter and Slion, I wish I knew how the heck this got remedied without an update and the power off for 6+ weeks. Could I have forgotten to reboot and try again after the last update?! (I thought that was automatic.) Can't imagine that, but anything's possible. So glad I don't have to write keyboard code myself. Apologies, this Keyboard Mod backer is finally a fan after 2 1/2 years.

It could be that you last time tried inside a program that tries to interact with the keyboard a little too smart. I think I recall some have reported specific keyboard issues in specific apps - can not recall neither the issues nor the app, sorry.
Check the date of the update you got. The last update is from the first week of March and thus quite close to the 6 weeks ago you mention.

[netman 1,424]

14 hours ago, adam.c.r.roman said:

That test actually works now, yet no software update was performed. How could that be????

This was indeed fixed with a software update as was stated:

18 hours ago, elvissteinjr said:

The issues you're talking about should be fixed in OTA update 2020-03-06.

The updater is pretty quirky though, it may only take effect after a reboot and also it may tell you are up-to-date and then change it's mind after reboot. To make sure you have the latest tell it to update, reboot, repeat.

I am certain the code was changed as I am responsible for that (for the multi-key support in keyboard that is) :P. Any combination of 2 keys should work, the modifier keys like ctrl, alt, shift work completely separately. Combinations of 3 or more keys depend on which keys they are as to whether they will work, and this isn't fixable in software. If you want to know why that is look up how anti-ghosting works and be aware that there is no diodes in place to do N-key rollover.

Edited April 19, 2020 by netman

[adam.c.r.roman 25]

On 4/19/2020 at 6:25 PM, netman said:

This was indeed fixed with a software update as was stated:

The updater is pretty quirky though, it may only take effect after a reboot and also it may tell you are up-to-date and then change it's mind after reboot. To make sure you have the latest tell it to update, reboot, repeat.

I am certain the code was changed as I am responsible for that (for the multi-key support in keyboard that is) :P. Any combination of 2 keys should work, the modifier keys like ctrl, alt, shift work completely separately. Combinations of 3 or more keys depend on which keys they are as to whether they will work, and this isn't fixable in software. If you want to know why that is look up how anti-ghosting works and be aware that there is no diodes in place to do N-key rollover.

netman, really great work, and I do apologize for not being more well-informed. This makes complete sense in both respects...

I probably didn't reboot after the 3/6 update and just got pissed off too quickly when it improved only slightly, and I just put it back in the box. (I do adore this hardware now, with several exceptions I may post elsewhere, but I was pretty thrown by the fact that the second slider since 2012 was seriously flawed, so I had little patience at the time).

And yes, if the keyboard matrix and firmware isn't arranged properly for more than 2 key presses in hardware, it's doomed from the start (modifier keys excluded). I've researched many many methods of scanning keyboard matricies back in the 90's, and Philips had an amazing Ap Note for their 8051 microcontrollers that detailed more keyboard matrix designs that I'd ever imagined possible. (Every current designer should read it.) And if using something inadequate, there was no way to detect certain keys while others were held down.

But on the other hand, even if there are diodes missing to create open- collector outputs, almost any modern microcontroller can be configured to make its outputs open-collector in firmware, and reverse inputs and outputs, thus negating the need for discrete diodes in the matrix, usually. I admit, I haven't looked into this in quite some time, but that's my recollection and current belief. I think these hardware limitations may be overcome with some creative microcontroller firmware. And therein stems my suspicion that the n-key rollover limitation may be conquered for this hardware revision, (admittedly without confirmation). We may need to see schematics which may or may not be available.

If anyone wants a copy of that  excellent Philips keyboard scanning Ap Note, I doubt it's easily obtained nowadays, but I can probably find my copy of anyone's interested.

Thanks again for the interesting and productive discussion. I want the Pro2 to be perfect, and I hope part of that future perfection will come from my patented ambient light-sensing method. The Pro1's ambient light-sensing is currently severely flawed (but almost every current device suffers from the same limitations, so no points off here... yet). For shits and giggles, try enabling Adaptive Brightness, and slowly modify the orientation of the device so that it "sees" or "doesn't see" the overhead light source. Pretty drastic, when nothing in the room is changing, and neither are the irises in your eyes. Hmmm.....   But like I said, pretty much every current device fucks up like this, no matter what software filters or delays are employed.

A final note... My sincere thanks to everybody for the most productive portable device I've used since the Psion Series 3A and the Samsung Moment (fastest keyboard I've ever used).

[netman 1,424]

9 hours ago, adam.c.r.roman said:

But on the other hand, even if there are diodes missing to create open- collector outputs, almost any modern microcontroller can be configured to make its outputs open-collector in firmware, and reverse inputs and outputs, thus negating the need for discrete diodes in the matrix, usually. I admit, I haven't looked into this in quite some time, but that's my recollection and current belief. I think these hardware limitations may be overcome with some creative microcontroller firmware. And therein stems my suspicion that the n-key rollover limitation may be conquered for this hardware revision, (admittedly without confirmation). We may need to see schematics which may or may not be available.

The diodes are the only thing missing, but your belief is not fully correct. The limitation with having no diodes is that if you press 3 keys that are in a rectangle on the matrix for example something like this:

Where A B C are the rows and 1 2 3 are the columns of the matrix and the red dots are pressed buttons, where the row and column are connected together by the switch. Then C and 1 are also connected together because row C is connected to column 2 which is connected to row A which connects to row 1. From only having GPIOs connected to each row and column it's impossible to tell which 3 of the 4 connections are actually pressed (or if there is actually not 4 keys pressed) from my logic. From the order in which things happen you can know the first 2 keys that where pressed, the latest driver should have no trouble with those. When there are not 3 keys that are corners of the same rectangle on the matrix (say  you'd press B1 instead of A1 in the example) there is no such problem and all 3 keys will be easily detected.

For some details on the Pro1 specifically, the chip in charge of scanning is an AW9523B in a simple 8 by 8 matrix, and I managed to get the multiple keys to work by instead of controlling the output side of the matrix as a push-pull output controlling the data direction with the output register set to 0 so that during a scan 1 of the 8 lines is configured as an output and all the others are a high-z input. The way the matrix is laid out IMO is adequate for pretty much any use, like for games you can have easily enough combinations to do diagonals with two key combinations on the left side of the keyboard and some action keys on the right side (note that rows and columns on the matrix don't map straightforwardly to rows and columns of the keyboard). Another saving grace is that all the modifier keys are independent (they're not part of the matrix and just go to a GPIO on the SoC). Strangely the chip has a port that has actual open collector outputs, but that's the side that has the pull-up resistors so we can't really use those straightforwardly, but it doesn't matter given the trick mentioned with switching the pin directions works equally well as an open collector output (even in software it's tidy since the output direction is just a register with a bit for each pin you can use as if it was the output data register). Also note that the Gemini, Cosmo and Titan use the same AW9523B chip in a similar arrangement and they suffer from the same limitations as far as I know.

Please do point me to that application note if possible, if there's tricks that I don't know I may have to get to work... 😄

[adam.c.r.roman 25]

netman, thanks very much for explaining the Pro1 hardware and refreshing my memory on the limitations without diodes, that makes perfect sense. I remember designing the hardware and firmware for a small keyboard for an invention of mine that included 2 encoders on the matrix, and I did have to include diodes on the 4 encoder outputs so they didn't short out the keys when the knobs were in certain positions.

And I think you're right about not being able to conquer that hardware limitation with a creative driver. That third key does indeed short everything out and obscure the source. I was looking at the datasheet for that keyboard / LED driver chip, and saw that in LED mode, it has an 8-bit variable current output across 4 ranges (so 10-bit), and I was contemplating using low current so the 100K pullups (I imagine they went with those, even though I prefer 22K - 47K to shield against noise a bit better) might not pull up weak current outputs, thus allowing a super crude successive approximation A/D to be configured to read analog levels, but that third key simply shorts everything out, so I don't see a way to make that work either.

As far as that Ap Note goes, I spent Hours looking through my books, and was shocked to find that it is Not in my 1995 Philips 80C51 Applications Databook. That's now driving me nuts, because now I can't imagine where I found that, about 12 years ago. I think it was in print, pretty sure. I did look through PDFs on several PCs, but that was also a bust, unless it has the original meaningless filename.  (Something that cool, I would've renamed the file.) I'm pissed, because some of the matrix designs were mindblowing, and there were at least a dozen. Some of the key and diode arrangements were just nuts. I think they also explained advantages and limitations of each. I know it still exists somewhere, so if you message me your email address, I'll for sure get it to you if and when it eventually turns up.

And again, great work on this driver... I do find these keys to be much too stiff, but the only mistakes in typing this were my own, lol.