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Pro1 and Pro1 X design change to use Snapdragon 662, no new devices before August 2021


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This articles make an interesting analysis and differentiation of all kinds of crowfundings : https://p2pmarketdata.com/crowdfunding-explained/

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Crowdfunding can be used for investment (either with shares or a loan) but not all crowdfunding are investment.

 

And very surprisingly, even if the reward-based crowdfunding is the most known of the general public it's only a very small portion of all the crowdfundings

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It is sad indeed. But as I see it they had very few alternatives after being swindled. Redesign the Pro1(x) using as much as they can of the existing with the remaining money. Await the m

I think @EskeRahndeserves a Gold Meddal

The line is when they take the money to Las Vegas and blow it on hookers and cocaine. And then they realize they need more money, so they delay shipping in order to solicit more funds, so they can pro

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@flx is not totally wrong, actually.

It is true that crowdfunding pools like IndieGogo provide a kind of smoke-screen protecting small companies from customer rights they would otherwise need to fulfil. That is indeed something that should be discussed politically.

The question is: would small start-up companies be able to get a foothold without that kind of protection? After all, they try to compete in a market dominated by players with virtually unlimited funds. So, if crowdfunding in the present form were to be abolished, public interest would probably dictate to find other mechanisms allowing small companies to survivie in the shadow of the giants.

Edited by claude0001
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3 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

I is true that crowdfunding pools like IndieGogo provide a kind of smoke-screen protecting small companies from customer rights they would otherwise need to fulfil. That is indeed something that should be discussed politically.

Yeah, but everybody should know by now that that's what it is when they're backing a crowdfunding campaign. It's not really a secret. And as far as I remember, backing is still voluntary. So noone is forced to go along with those conditions.

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10 hours ago, flx said:

This articles make an interesting analysis and differentiation of all kinds of crowfundings : https://p2pmarketdata.com/crowdfunding-explained/

This is all very well, and except for the grouping in the middle layer seems a fairly objective description.
But it is absurd to categorize something where you expect/hope for something in return as investments or non-investments based on the nature of the return and not the expected value.

If you fund something from the good of your heart or to support something (e.g. LineageOS, or Greenpeace) without any clearly priced value of the outcome, it is clearly not an investment. (*)
But if you expect/hope to profit by a reward with a value not substantially less than the funded amount, it obviously IS an investment.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/investment
 

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the act of putting money, effort, time, etc. into something to make a profit or get an advantage, or the money, effort, time, etc. used to do this:



So in corrected form the figure would be:
Crowdfunding-Models_Corrected1.thumb.png.db2691b086d8100016a7b2726b91bf52.png

(*) But a 'donation' could be in an grey area. Whether a particular funding could be considered a pure donation or a reward based investment might depend on circumstances. Say your income depends on some open-source product to be functional and developing (e.g. https://www.osgeo.org/ or https://www.postgresql.org/ ) it could hardly be considered a 'pure' donation.

It is interesting that reward based crowdfunding in 2016&2017 had such a small portion of the total crowdfunding of each region.
Unfortunately the article only describes the relative proportion of the categories within each region, but does not give us an indication of whether it was a big thing or not in each region.
So when then numbers indicates that 0.7% respectively 4.7% of crowdfunding was reward based in the UK respectively the rest of Europe, it is a bit hard to see if this reflects a huge difference in the amount of reward based crowdfunding, or in crowdfunding a s a whole in the areas. From their own figures crowdfunding in total was disproportionally much bigger in some European countries than others, with 68% being in the UK, so the 0.7% of the much bigger number could be comparable with the the numbers from other European countries. That we from their numbers could calculate to a mere €0.75 per capita in the UK

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19 hours ago, Robert said:

But I must say, I'm realy thinking of askung for refund, because the missing hardwase-security features are really painfull for me. Especially because my daily business is to work with sensitive data. 😞

There are no hardware security (or security capabilities) features missing if using the SD662. What it doesn't have is hardware acceleration for many security algorithms. That just means that those will be processed much much slower than SD835 can. That can be related to slower internet speeds that is reported/announced for the SD662.

 

Edit: The only hardware security that an have meaning is the TrustZone. Is that the one you were missing? If so, for what purpose in the smartphone?

Edited by brunoais
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So what I'm seeing is, the device I purchased in February 2020, which I have never received, is now going to be a different device than I purchased.

I love waiting on stuff that's going to be slow and outdated by the time I get it, just to find out it will be even slower than before and a year later.

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On 2/11/2021 at 11:00 PM, FlyingAntero said:

And there is also SD720G (2020 Q1) which is as old as SD662.

Also, we know that the SM6115 (662), made in 11nm process technology, offers support for NavIC out-of-the-box, same as much better SM7125 (720G), 8nm, that offers NavIC support too:

-- https://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/files/qualcomm-snapdragon-662-mobile-platform-product-brief.pdf
-- https://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/files/qualcomm-snapdragon-720g-mobile-platform-product-brief.pdf

Please note that SM7150-AB (730G) doesn't have support for NavIC and therefore might be out of the eventual SoC upgrade consideration.

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On 2/21/2021 at 12:34 PM, Apextech said:

So what I'm seeing is, the device I purchased in February 2020, which I have never received, is now going to be a different device than I purchased.

I love waiting on stuff that's going to be slow and outdated by the time I get it, just to find out it will be even slower than before and a year later.

It is sad indeed. But as I see it they had very few alternatives after being swindled.

  1. Redesign the Pro1(x) using as much as they can of the existing with the remaining money.
  2. Await the months or years a trial may take, and hope they win, and HOPE they can buy and stock whatever 835 they could find (if any!), and then have someone making the pcbs if they win - a high risk gamble, and the device would likely be quite outdated then, and no income while you and others were waiting.
  3. Start the development of a totally new Pro2, my guess would be it would reach us after 2021. and most likely would require additional funding
  4. Fold the company and refund to the extent possible of the remaining free funds.

BUT on 3) and 4) we have no idea how much free capital is available and how much is tied in parts for the Pro1 they already got in stock or have committed themselves to buy. But if that is a substantial amount, then option 1) could be much cheaper per produced device.
Let us imagine that they already in the thousands ordered displays, cases, keyboards, antennas, sensors, cables, connectors...... And even the memory and cameras they might be able to upgrade their order to a more expensive new model but not cancelling. So in principle if they do NOT go for using all this they could end with a stock of the parts for many many full phones less the pcb, and those could be close to worthless, except as massive amounts of spare parts for existing users. So if they for a reasonable amount can make a whole new pcb with the 662, and put it together with the rest. I personally would MUCH rather have that than a bag full of spare parts - that for those without an existing Pro1 would be worthless.

Of course there are in-betweens of the 1 and 3 above, but the more they need to change the more expensive it is, and the longer it will take. And i doubt the majority would be willing to pay say an additional £1-300, and it would require everyone to be on board as producing two substantially different variants are totally unrealistic in these volumes.

Frankly I find it amazing that these guys still have enough spirit to fight on, to give keyboard phones to those that needs them. It would have been so much easier for them to just fold and say tough luck, bye bye...

The real choice is to have a 662 Pro1(x) or nothing.

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1 hour ago, Apextech said:

So what I'm seeing is, the device I purchased in February 2020, which I have never received, is now going to be a different device than I purchased.

I love waiting on stuff that's going to be slow and outdated by the time I get it, just to find out it will be even slower than before and a year later.

That's one perspective to view it, and it is completely justified.

Another perspective that is just as valid is what @EskeRahn just hinted at. With the imponderables of a business like this and a company as small as Fxtec it is at least a small wonder that they still exist and not yet had to file for insolvency, in which case we as orderers and backers (while I have finally managed to get a used one, I'm still waiting on a Pro¹ I ordered 17 months ago and a Pro¹ X I ordered 4 months ago) might come away completely empty-handed, no phone, no money. Instead, they seem to be intent on doing everything possible, as little as that may seem to be for some of us, to continue to produce the best keyboard phone they can, the only one of its kind, and the good news is there's still one within range of vision. 

The fact that the Pro¹ was originally designed with a Snapdragon 835 already made it clear that utmost performance was never the goal. The goal was always a great phone with keyboard and decent enough performance. And no-one will be able to perceive the Snapdragon 662 as slower than the 835 – except for extreme cases with GPU-heavy applications. It won't look different and it won't feel different. Except that it will get more up-to-date software and a significantly better camera, and probably have some of the rough edges of the original device removed.

I look forward to getting one in my hands. As being one of the last few pre-orderers from back in 2019, I hope that I'll be one of the first to test one and to compare it to the existing Pro¹. We'll see which one I'll keep in the end. I'm not making any forecasts about that yet. 

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I would contend software optimization will matter more than outright processor power - at least for actual use scenarios. I hope that gap is filled. But we've hoped a lot since this started

Also, @fxtec STOP giving time estimates. Just do periodic updates.

Edited by npatel1050
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On 2/21/2021 at 1:23 PM, EskeRahn said:

Frankly I find it amazing that these guys still have enough spirit to fight on, to give keyboard phones to those that needs them. It would have been so much easier for them to just fold and say tough luck, buy buy...

Yes they are awesome, Chen is the king!

Buy, buy their phones 🤣

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Does anyone think they can bridge the massive gap in months while paying for the hardware and employe labor costs 
since they where set back allot they also took this massive hit  financialy  in time lost .

At this point i just hope they gonna make it 

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On 2/21/2021 at 6:34 AM, Apextech said:

So what I'm seeing is, the device I purchased in February 2020, which I have never received, is now going to be a different device than I purchased.

I love waiting on stuff that's going to be slow and outdated by the time I get it, just to find out it will be even slower than before and a year later.

 

On 2/19/2021 at 6:36 PM, flx said:

Please read everything else that I have posted.

 

I will take any fxtec pro1 phone I can get, since they are the only keyboard phone that provides what I need. Full keyboard layout with all symbols and modifiers.

That being said if you did want a refund, you can just file for a chargeback. Now IGG says that you're crowdfunding and it's not like regular shopping, etc, etc. but all of that's IRRELEVANT because your credit lender has ALL THE POWER.

If you can convince your credit card provider to give you a refund, they'll give you your money back regardless of what IGG's policies are. In fact if you look at IGG's support pages, it explicitly discusses how chargebacks work and that's it entirely possible to get a refund this way. 

So while we can describe crowdfunding as a "donation" or an "investment", our credit card lenders see it as  purchase and thus, we're protected by consumer protection laws.

That being said you should consult with the company first and see if you can work something out.

Edited by lawliett
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I read that the 662 has about 80% of the performance of the 835. Since I was just going to use it to edit files and run a browser and a pdf reader inside a linux proot, I'm not sure it's really an issue for me. I think it's more of an issue for someone who was planning on running graphically intensive software.

Honestly, I'd rather get the pro1x sooner, so that I can have a backup and they can get started on the pro2 campaign.

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Hah!   Good luck getting a refund.  I asked for one right after the announcement of the spec change.  They responded a couple days later.  "Tough luck, indigogo doesn't work that way, you aren't getting a refund, you'll get a phone when we're done.  Pound sand." (Paraphrasing)  Basically they can do whatever they want with your money.  Last IGG i ever do.

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2 hours ago, 86turbodsl said:

Hah!   Good luck getting a refund.  I asked for one right after the announcement of the spec change.  They responded a couple days later.  "Tough luck, indigogo doesn't work that way, you aren't getting a refund, you'll get a phone when we're done.  Pound sand." (Paraphrasing)  Basically they can do whatever they want with your money.  Last IGG i ever do.

Try asking your bank for a card chargeback. They treat it as a purchase and are not bound by igg.

I wouldn't let the money go. I waited near 9 months for my Pro1 but a specs change would have made me snap for sure. If they wanna go about it the hard way so be it.

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9 hours ago, lawliett said:

 So while we can describe crowdfunding as a "donation" or an "investment", our credit card lenders see it as  purchase and thus, we're protected by consumer protection laws.

That being said you should consult with the company first and see if you can work something out.

Nobody is protected by laws just because a company thinks it is a purchase.
The IGG Support page does state chargebacks, because some projects may explicitly allow it.
That does not mean that this is law, or will work anytime.

It does not mean that it doesn't work either, but getting to a juristic conclusion on this information is dangerous.
Could depend on the credit card company you use, could happen that fxtec does indeed fight against the chargeback, no idea what happens then. Would you have to pay for the process? There are a lot of things to consider here. Does your country see IGG as purchase or not? Or has it special laws to handle that?

I would guess that lenders have a different process for these thing for every jurisdiction they cover...

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5 hours ago, Doktor Oswaldo said:

It does not mean that it doesn't work either, but getting to a juristic conclusion on this information is dangerous.
Could depend on the credit card company you use, could happen that fxtec does indeed fight against the chargeback, no idea what happens then. Would you have to pay for the process? There are a lot of things to consider here. Does your country see IGG as purchase or not? Or has it special laws to handle that?

True, I'm speaking based on personal experience as an American. No idea how chargebacks work in other parts of the world. Here you just open up a dispute with your credit card company, they do an investigation and communicate with the company and payment processor and then within around 60 days they make a ruling. You won't be charged for the investigation, but you could potentially get banned from the service (Playstation bans anyone who tries to do a chargeback, even in cases of fraud).

However, a company can't choose to allow or disallow chargebacks. Any credit card lender has the ability to do a chargeback and pull money back out. It's not something that IGG or Fxtec has any control over, but they can fight the dispute during the investigation. That's why you should always try to work something out with the company first.

Edited by lawliett
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5 hours ago, lawliett said:

However, a company can't choose to allow or disallow chargebacks. Any credit card lender has the ability to do a chargeback and pull money back out. It's not something that IGG or Fxtec has any control over, but they can fight the dispute during the investigation. That's why you should always try to work something out with the company first.

So if I give (or lent) you some money and regretted that weeks later for what ever reason. I'm allowed to do a "chargeback" of that too? Sounds pretty absurd, if it is not limited to something I buy.
That would certainly be a sure way to make people prefer cash payments...

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21 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

So if I give (or lent) you some money and regretted that weeks later for what ever reason. I'm allowed to do a "chargeback" of that too? Sounds pretty absurd, if it is not limited to something I buy.
That would certainly be a sure wake to make people prefer cash payments...

You absolutely can do a chargeback, but there's a risk that not only will you lose the dispute, but you could end up getting banned by both the service and even the credit card lender. For example, I mistakenly sent some money to someone through zelle. I called up my bank and asked them if it would be possible to revert the transaction because I had done it by mistake. Now apparently, you cannot reverse a zelle transaction unless there was fraud and I explicitly asked her if could in this instance despite no fraud occuring. Bless her soul, the representative had no idea about these rules and happily told me I could go ahead and file the dispute.

Long story short, I lost the dispute, my account was closed due to fraudulent activity and I was given a life ban from ever opening an account at that bank again. So chargebacks are a very powerful tool, but they must be used with discretion. It's less a magic wand, and more a nuclear option that can blow up in your face.

Also never assume the customer service rep knows what they're talking about and always do your own research.

Edited by lawliett
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As someone who has one phone in daily use I wouldn't have backed the campaign now if I didn't need a new one until next year so ASAP is good even if it could have been better (everything will always be better in the future, except phones which are already too big and still growing - another reason not to wait)

Edited by suicidal_orange
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