Pro¹ X – state of production and delivery

[749121 16]

Given my IGG no. is well over 3000 (!!!), I think I can whistle for seeing my phone this year.  Not, I hasten to add, that I still actually want it - I'll be keeping my BB Key2 until either it dies or something more up-to-date with a PKB comes along.  But I would like to try and mitigate my losses by selling the PRO1-X while there might still be some market for it.  

 

To say I was disappointed by the latest IGG update is, well, not quite right, as I no longer have any real expectations of Fxtec delivering - but it was still pretty depressing.

 

By the way, and apologies if it's slightly off-topic, but I was wondering: can anyone recommend a good channel to use to sell a phone privately?   Until recently I wouldn't have thought twice about using E-bay, but these days it's a pretty awful experience as a seller, particularly while E-bay sits on your money post-sale at their leisure!

[daniele606 6]

Hi All,

writing from Italy here, i just recieved my Pro1X.
I was able to setup my Google account and other app.
Checking some stuff around i noticed that the SOC is snapdragon 665 and the camera is 12MP.

Am I completely wrong or should I have expected a 48MP camera and Snapdragon 662 with the Pro1X?
It doesn't really matter as I don't need a new phone anymore, but i am just curious to understand if this configuraiton is not only for me.

Happy to have finally received it 🙂

[PoongZY 15]

2 hours ago, daniele606 said:

Hi All,

writing from Italy here, i just recieved my Pro1X.
I was able to setup my Google account and other app.
Checking some stuff around i noticed that the SOC is snapdragon 665 and the camera is 12MP.

Am I completely wrong or should I have expected a 48MP camera and Snapdragon 662 with the Pro1X?
It doesn't really matter as I don't need a new phone anymore, but i am just curious to understand if this configuraiton is not only for me.

Happy to have finally received it 🙂

The site says it is 662 with 12MP

https://fxtec.com/pro1x

[MonCon 125]

2 hours ago, daniele606 said:

Checking some stuff around i noticed that the SOC is snapdragon 665 and the camera is 12MP.

Where did you get the info on your SoC?  

I tried 'Settings => About phone', *#*#4636#*#*, and a couple of apps from F-Droid, but I can't find anything that displays the SoC model. 

Regarding the camera: 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by MonCon

[Hook 3,043]

1 hour ago, MonCon said:

Where did you get the info on your SoC?  

Both 3C All-in-One Toolbox or Inware will do that.  They use the part number (eg MSM8998 for the Pro 1's SD835) rather than the more familiar model number or whatever they call it.  Inware is good if you mostly just want information.  3C has endless tools and is a little overwheming sometimes.  😉  Both are on Google Play.

[Rob. S. 1,664]

Inware says "BENGAL" for my Pro1X, which is the codename for the Qualcomm Snapdragon 662 SM6115.

[EskeRahn 5,471]

5 hours ago, daniele606 said:

Am I completely wrong or should I have expected a 48MP camera and Snapdragon 662 with the Pro1X?

The 48MP sensor produces 12MP images after interpolation - I guess it is a sales thing that Sony market it as 48MP, and this is usually just copied by those that use it. e.g. FxTec. We have this difference discussed in another thread somewhere...

Interesting with the 662/665, what software are you seeing this on?
If I check my Pro1X with "Aida", it says "Qualcomm snapdragon 460/662", "Device Info HW" says "662", but "CPU-Z" says "665".

So I guess that the app sort of takes a guess on the cpu based on the info available, rather than get an actual ID back - that could explain discrepancies.

[daniele606 6]

 Thanks everybody, now everything looks more clear to me:

3 hours ago, MonCon said:

Where did you get the info on your SoC?  

I tried 'Settings => About phone', *#*#4636#*#*, and a couple of apps from F-Droid, but I can't find anything that displays the SoC model. 

Regarding the camera: 

 

Interesting thread, I have understood a little better (or at least I hope) how digital photography works.
Megapixels aside, which are not really important, the photos i took in my room don't looks bad compared to my Galaxy A52s. I will try to take some shots around this weekend.

 

41 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

Interesting with the 662/665, what software are you seeing this on?
If I check my Pro1X with "Aida", it says "Qualcomm snapdragon 460/662", "Device Info HW" says "662", but "CPU-Z" says "665".

So I guess that the app sort of takes a guess on the cpu based on the info available, rather than get an actual ID back - that could explain discrepancies.

I used CPU-Z  but "he" is probably guessing wrong, i also have "BENGAL" as model.
Furthermore, "Aida" is reporting the exact same information mentioned above so i believe my device is just fine😊😊

[MonCon 125]

 

4 hours ago, Hook said:

Both 3C All-in-One Toolbox or Inware will do that.  😉  Both are on Google Play.

I suppose I could take the tin foil hat off for a while and give them a try 😀. 

 

4 hours ago, Rob. S. said:

Inware says "BENGAL" for my Pro1X, which is the codename for the Qualcomm Snapdragon 662 SM6115.

 

2 hours ago, daniele606 said:

I used CPU-Z  but "he" is probably guessing wrong, i also have "BENGAL" as model.

When I plug my PrawnX into my laptop it shows up as 'Fx_tec_Pro1X_BENGAL-IDP__SN%XXXXXXXX'

 

2 hours ago, daniele606 said:

Megapixels aside, which are not really important, the photos i took in my room don't looks bad compared to my Galaxy A52s. I will try to take some shots around this weekend. 

Most of the photography discussions go over my head, but I find FreeDCam quite a nice app. 

[PoongZY 15]

5 hours ago, Rob. S. said:

Inware says "BENGAL" for my Pro1X, which is the codename for the Qualcomm Snapdragon 662 SM6115.

CPU-Z says it is 665
 

[claude0001 1,352]

11 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

The 48MP sensor produces 12MP images after interpolation

I think "interpolation" is not quite the right word here. The idea with these 48 MP sensors is that they group equally-coloured pixels in bunches of four, and usually average over these four neighbors to yield a 12 MP image. This is called "pixel binning" and reduces noise through the averaging operation.

Technically, in optimum light conditions, the camera could indeed record all pixels individually to yield a 48 MP image. But, seemingly, the Pro1X's drivers do not support that mode.

7 hours ago, PoongZY said:

CPU-Z says it is 665

As @EskeRahn and @daniele606 point out, CPU-Z is wrong. Other apps correctly identify the SoC as SD662, in agreement with the phone's specs.

Edited March 10, 2023 by claude0001

[FlyingAntero 871]

11 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

The 48MP sensor produces 12MP images after interpolation - I guess it is a sales thing that Sony market it as 48MP, and this is usually just copied by those that use it. e.g. FxTec. We have this difference discussed in another thread somewhere...

@claude0001already pointed out the difference between pixel binning and interpolation. Pixel binning is actually great feature on smartphones since it can resolve some issues that are caused by the limited size of camera module and optics. Interpolation on the other hand can be considered as a fake marketing number since it creates information out of nothing. Some sketchy Chinese brands used to that a lot in the past. Pixel binning combines already collected information so it is real thing.

OnePlus 8T uses the same IMX 586 sensor for the main camera. By default it takes 12MP shots since dynamic is usually better and pixel binning is better for low light shots. However, OnePlus 8T can also take 48MP shots if needed. If conditions are very good then 48MP can provide better pics. I don't know why F(x)tec does not offer the feature to take 48MP shots.

Here is comparison between 12MP and 48MP shot on OP8T.

"The image quality benefit of using full resolution is typical for a Quad Bayer filter-like camera. Details are perceptibly increased at the pixel level, but correspondingly, the dynamics of the images are slightly lost.

In low light, the benefits of using full resolution actually disappear completely and only the downsides remain, so using full resolution can be recommended primarily in daylight."

48MP

12MP

Edited March 10, 2023 by FlyingAntero

[throwaway9284939 6]

It has now been almost a full year since I gave FXT my money through IGG. Delivery date has been pushed back so many times that I've resigned that it's never going to come. Since they're only just now shipping batch 1XXX and mine is 3XXX, at this rate I'll get my phone in about 10 years. My bank has denied my credit card dispute twice now even though FXT has refused to grant a refund twice and are constantly pushing back shipping dates and lying about when it will be ready. Is there any other course of action that can be take to get my money back that isn't "wait to get your phone then resell it"?

[Hook 3,043]

24 minutes ago, throwaway9284939 said:

It has now been almost a full year since I gave FXT my money through IGG. Delivery date has been pushed back so many times that I've resigned that it's never going to come. Since they're only just now shipping batch 1XXX and mine is 3XXX, at this rate I'll get my phone in about 10 years. My bank has denied my credit card dispute twice now even though FXT has refused to grant a refund twice and are constantly pushing back shipping dates and lying about when it will be ready. Is there any other course of action that can be take to get my money back that isn't "wait to get your phone then resell it"?

Only 1 year?  😉

Sorry, but there are no refunds with crowdfunding, because you are not buying a product, you are investing in a project in hopes that the product will be produced and then you will get that invested-in perk.  As IGG warned when you invested, you are not even guaranteed that you will get anything.  You  will most likely get your phone and I even suspect it will be in the near future, but in crowdfunding, the money is spent on the attempt to produce the product.  There is nothing to refund.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Hook

[Rob. S. 1,664]

41 minutes ago, throwaway9284939 said:

Is there any other course of action that can be take to get my money back that isn't "wait to get your phone then resell it"?

Sorry having to say so, but no. That's exactly what IGG is about and has been about right from the start. You're not guaranteed to get anything, neither a product nor a refund, no matter how huge a sum you paid and no matter what you might have had reason to believe.

Hoping to eventually get your phone and then resell it (if you really don't want to make an attempt to use it) is probably still your best bet. I just sold the Pro1X I ordered in 2020, received in 2022, used for half a year as my daily driver and then replaced with another one with a different keyboard, for hardly less than I originally paid.

 You also might want to read this: 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Rob. S.

[throwaway9284939 6]

46 minutes ago, Rob. S. said:

Sorry having to say so, but no. That's exactly what IGG is about and has been about right from the start. You're not guaranteed to get anything, neither a product nor a refund, no matter how huge a sum you paid and no matter what you might have had reason to believe.

Hoping to eventually get your phone and then resell it (if you really don't want to make an attempt to use it) is probably still your best bet. I just sold the Pro1X I ordered in 2020, received in 2022, used for half a year as my daily driver and then replaced with another one with a different keyboard, for hardly less than I originally paid.

 You also might want to read this: 

 

Except by the time I get mine it will barely have any value left. As there have been countless threads on here of connecitivity issues, broken promises related to OS development, Expansys having a backdoor deal and people getting phones in only two days from them as opposed to two years for people who actually backed it, perks not being fulfulled in their entirety, and setback after setback with no response from FxTec beyond canned marketing quotes. By the time this phone arrives it will be worthless, its chips were already obsolete when production started. It will be nowhere near the $800+ I paid for the enthusaist bundle (including two replacement screens and a battery that will be long dead when it arrives, neither of which will show up either). This is becoming Mighty No. 9 levels of disaster, overpromise and underdeliver (or in this case, just don't deliver at all).

I've already purchased a new phone in the meantime, so I am now down a total of $1200 just because I wanted a libre phone that worked. Such a shame that XDA attached itself to a project that went this bad this quickly. 

[Rob. S. 1,664]

1 hour ago, throwaway9284939 said:

Except by the time I get mine it will barely have any value left

The risk is there. Still it remains to be seen. Depending on region and carrier, the Pro1 X is usable, and being the unique item that it is, it will remain desirable for a lot of people for a substantial time to come. Many want it for the keyboard alone and couldn't care less for the processor which also will be good enough in normal use for a long time to come. So in case you do get it, you will at least be able to cut your losses. Which might not be what one would wish for, but still a lot more than many other IGG projects turned out to be. 

Also, it is a complete wonder that F(x)tec even exists after the problems they faced. If they would have folded months ago or, which would have been completely understandable, you would be out of options now. As it is, you at least have a chance to cut your losses at some point. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Rob. S.

[Hook 3,043]

59 minutes ago, throwaway9284939 said:

Expansys having a backdoor deal

I actually don't think this was a "backdoor" deal.  The phones for supporters were put on palettes and sent to the Logistics warehouse to be sent out to backers in August.  They also produced a limited run for Expansys Retail which were timed to go out and made available following shipment of the perks.  What put a wrench in the works is that they hit a wall when a problem came up with their logistics contract. However, Expansys retail had received their units and proceeded to put them on sale (probably and agreed upon date that was supposed to be post-shipment) with only a minor markup from Wholesale while our perks languished at the logistics warehouse.

Is there a conspiracy involved in the fact the Expansys was handling both logistics and sales.  Probably not.  Expansys is a big company.  I doubt Retail even knew what was going on in the logistics operation. 

Doesn't make the situation any better, but I don't think this was intentionally underhanded.

[Rob. S. 1,664]

34 minutes ago, steff said:

1 hour ago, Rob. S. said:

Depending on region and carrier, the Pro1 X is usable,

That was a terrible comment because it included the quoted sentence.

I don't understand. What I do understand perfectly is that there are deal-breaking issues for many if not most buyers, but, for a fact, me, I'm using a Pro1 X for half a year now as the only smartphone I carry and I have everything more or less functional, so there *are* such regions and carriers, and that's why there *are* people who buy those used phones, pay good money, and leave good ratings, too. That's what my comment was about. For some time to come, there will be demand for the Pro1 X even if it doesn't work at all in large parts of the world, because there are parts where it can be made to. 

For me, connectivity is not good but usable, both for mobile data and voice, at least as long as I'm running the LTE Discovery app in No-LTE cycle mode. And if I need even more, I carry a tiny mobile router. No problems with Wifi whatsoever. I also use the Pro1 X frequently to download photos from my mirrorless system cameras via the Wifi that's set up by the camera. Works like a charm. Again, I understand everyone's problems. But the phone is still far from becoming worthless on the used market, as anyone can see who opens up ebay. So even if someone doesn't want to use it or actually cannot (and also is sick of waiting for Fxtec to finally get the necessary bugfixes out), they *will* be able to sell their phones for a decent price for quite some time to come, even if Fxtec doesn't get those updates out. Let alone if they do.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Rob. S.

[claude0001 1,352]

3 hours ago, throwaway9284939 said:

Is there any other course of action that can be take to get my money back that isn't "wait to get your phone then resell it"?

As harsh as it sounds, in retrospect, F(x)tec’s biggest mistake was to keep up the effort of delivering all promised devices to their IGG backers. That they tried (and are still trying) to get a device to any one who invested in the Pro1-X crowdfunding campaign is honourable, but, from a business point of view, it was the wrong decision.

When it became clear that the SD835 could no longer be delivered, they should have declared the IGG campaign a fail, taken the money, and invested it fully into development of a viable successor of the Pro1, without committing to delivering any devices beyond prototype or pre-production units. That would have allowed them to stay in business after the unexpected EoL of the (relatively successful) Pro1.

As we all know, they did not do this. They clung to the idea that they could develop a successor phone and deliver it to all backers. Something that was obviously not planned at the start of the IGG campaign. In result, they rushed into full-scale production of a Pro1 successor without sufficient QA.

Now, the damage is done. I no longer believe the Pro1-X’s connection problems will be solved by some OTA magic. F(x)tec have been "in the final sprint" to provide such a fix for too long. I think the device has problems with its RF hardware, full stop. Of those who unbox it, some will be lucky enough to be in region where the phone works at first. But soon they will travel around and find that  the device simply cannot fulfil that "my-always-on-mobile-office" promise made in the ads.

Sadly, I think this is the end. F(x)tec had this one chance to make their next phone and they missed it. Even I would hesitate to support them if they were to launch a Pro2 campaign now.

[EskeRahn 5,471]

1 hour ago, steff said:

Sadly imho this is the first really realistic comment on the mistake Fxtec made. I think 99,9% of forum members wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to judging Fxtecs decision making in the IGG campaign.

I think the worst problem in the judging is our lack of real knowledge of what was known when. In hindsight things look terrible, but that is not the same as saying that they did when the decisions were actually made.

But sure their reputation is tarnished no matter if any actual 'guilt' can be placed of them doing stuff they knew were bad.

I bet many that would be interested in a Pro2, would wait shelling out till it was actually available, and they hear the user reactions. Some of us feel certain that these are good guys fighting like lions to actually deliver, but I bet we are few left that would gladly invest in a Pro2-IGG-campain.

Two things that talk highly in their favour
1) In the Motorolo-mod camapain, Chen offered ANYONE either a full refund or a voucher, at our own choosing.
2) They did NOT fold with all that hit with the Swindle, the Corona and you name it, but keep on fighting though drip-wise delivering.

Some commenters claim them as crooked, if that was so they have had plenty of opportunities to take-the-money-and-run in both these projects. And that they did not, in my book vouch for their good and honest character, and that is why I personally would not hesitate to back again.

[Rob. S. 1,664]

2 hours ago, steff said:

Everybody has his own opinion and i am not trying to convince you in any way, i just disagree. I personally do not like judgement of actions and decisions based on subjective impressions like "good and honest character". [...]

You're misrepresenting what @EskeRahn did, reading it backwards. What he did was trying to objectively judge their character from thorough observation and actual evidence collected over four years, of which he also presented some, which you choose to brush aside without so much as a syllable. You're perfectly entitled to apply a different reasoning and come to a different conclusion, but to be taken serious in an actual discussion you would need to  take notice of his arguments and his evidence and counter them, not just reject his conclusion (which I think is well-founded) simply by saying "I don't like it".

No one is trying to tell you that everything's good and you have no reason to complain. It isn't, and you have. But you have to look behind the façade and ask, which alternatives could there even have been. My impression, based on closely and critically following this drama for about as long as @EskeRahn (while, unlike him, I didn't trust Mr Chen back then and chose the refund for the Moto Keyboard Mod they had had to scrap), is that the only alternative to attempting to make and sell a certain number of this problematic Pro1 X devices might already have been calling it a bust and closing shop.

This is also where I dare to disagree slightly with @claude0001; going Pro2 instead of Pro1X might have been just that critical bit more difficult to make it impossible at the time. It very well could have meant, again, a substantial number of customers to be contacted and asked for either refund or agreeing to a significant price increase, where even just a few refunds might already have meant the financial duress to become fatal. While their reasons for not leaving all IGG backers in the lurch might also have had to do with trust, something which they were already losing back then. Who would have trusted them again if they had just taken the backers' money without them getting anything? That would have been the first hard evidence in their history to date to fully justify any distrust that would have followed.

Whatever conclusion we arrive at, without insight into their books and records it will, of course, be highly speculative. With that in mind, and without hard evidence for culpable wrongdoing, the people in charge deserve the benfit of the doubt.

And it doesn't help anyone if we just continue to vent, either, as much as any anger about the current state of the Pro1 X is completely justified. Justified, though, doesn't automatically imply helpful.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Rob. S.

[claude0001 1,352]

1 hour ago, Rob. S. said:

While their reasons for not leaving all IGG backers in the lurch might also have had to do with trust, something which they were already losing back then. Who would have trusted them again if they had just taken the backers' money without them getting anything?

Of course that would have been a tough decision to make. But, retrospectively, I think it would have been the right one, and a more experienced company would have gone that way.

The Pro1-X crowdfunding campaign was never meant for hardware development. It was about making a "collector's edition" of the existing Pro1 with improved alternative-OS support.

When the SD835 went EoL (something they should have seen coming btw.), they should have taken the chance to communicate that -- given these circumstances -- backers unfortunately cannot get the Pro1-X device they backed, but will be offered a yet-to-be-determined discount on the successor Pro2, now in development, as soon as that hits the market.

Of course there would have been outrage. But could it have been worse than what we have now?

I see the reasons why they did not do this: They see this as a community thing, they regard their backers as friends which they do not want to betray. That might make them good persons, but it's also the reason why they fail as a company ...

Edited March 15, 2023 by claude0001

[Rob. S. 1,664]

26 minutes ago, steff said:

Let me clarify it a little bit. I am talking about SELECTIVE PERCEPTION. You see what you want to see. You like a person and think he is good and honest and because of that you do not question his decisions and defend his actions. This goes back to my previous comment about fxtec community members with rose-colored glasses. I did not misinterprete his comment, i totally understood what he said. Imo Eske and you as well fall in the category of being affected by selective perception. As i said, in my opinion.

You're just repeating yourself, and you're wrong, and you're not listening. I could just as well have talked to a parking meter, that might have been a more fruitful exchange, so I'm stopping here. Just these last words – the reason for my partaking here is based on the wish to see the situation for the Pro1X owners and prospective owners improved, not to distribute blame the distribution of which helps no one, and as of now, there's still a small chance things actually will improve. It's only over when it's over, and if that day should finally come, everyone can distribute blame as they wish. Cheers & bye. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Rob. S.

[Rob. S. 1,664]

5 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

Of course that would have been a tough decision to make. But, retrospectively, I think it would have been the right one, and a more experienced company would have gone that way.

The Pro1-X crowdfunding campaign was never meant for hardware development. It was about making a "collectors edition" of the existing Pro1 with improved alternative-OS support.

When the SD835 went EoL (something they should have seen coming btw.), they should have taken the chance to communicate that -- given these circumstances -- backers unfortunately cannot get the Pro1-X device they backed, but will be offered a yet-to-be-determined discount on the successor Pro2, now in development, as soon as that hits the market.

Of course there would have been outrage. But could it have been worse than what we have now?

I see the reasons, why they did not do this: They see this as a community thing, they regard their backers as friends which they do not want to betray. That might make them good persons, but it's also the reason why they fail as a company ...

Also, it might have not been possible with Indiegogo, as loose as their regulations obviously are (eg. in comparison to Kickstarter)...