Pro¹ X – state of production and delivery

[Hook 2,655]

19 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

the SoC change "only became apparent 1.5+ years into the campaign". I do not see how this is true.

Yeah, saw that.  Either the person who wrote that mistakenly put years instead of months, or they think the campaign started with the original Pro 1.  The Pro 1 was not crowdfunded.

[claude0001 1,150]

1 hour ago, claude0001 said:

I also once had a theory along the lines of Expansys "appropriating" part of the stock . However, F(x)tec now explicitly state that at least all IGG-backed phones are "ready and in Hong Kong".

Actually, reading through the IGG comments, I find now that F(x)tec actually confirmed the "appropriation" theory!

F(x)tec (@IGG):

Quote

[...] shops have obtained stock from our warehouse without our permission or knowledge. This action was taken by our warehouse in an attempt to recover a some of the outstanding balance that they are due to paid by us. [...]

However, they also state that, as they have manufactured many more devices then needed, there are (still?) enough to deliver to all backers ...

[EskeRahn 5,178]

3 hours ago, claude0001 said:

I agree with some of the IGG comments that it would have been better to end the project when it became clear that the SD835 could no longer be acquired. I wonder if some of the Pro1-X's problems could have been avoided, had it not been developed under the pressure of having to deliver it to all backers ...

If we go further down this road of contrafactual history, how large a fraction would you have expected to get back as a refund? It certainly could not be 100%...
Remember this is crowdfunding, so WE, and not FxTec bare any risk of our investments.

We do not know the exact time line on how long after they paid the swindlers to they found out that they have been swindled, and realised they had no alternative.

Hence nor do we know how much other stuff were non-refundable ordered before they knew, in principle it could be all parts.

I bet that for many suppliers it would be possible to ask them to hold an order not yet started and request them to deliver something (slightly) different later (E.g. some modified backs). But many suppliers would be reluctant to give even a partial refund, to a one-time tiny customer...

Remember the low volumes here, so any penalty (reduced/lacking refund) by suppliers added up could be a large fraction of the individual price when spread out.

So what if that ended up where they could offer us a 30% refund? (just to pick an arbitrary number)

In hindsight some might today prefer that we have taken a low percentage, but at the time, the 662 variant would be a bargain over a small refund. And they could not have given us the choice, it would be all in or all out, As the developing cost of the new variant needs to be spread out, so if only some choose a refund they would still have to pay their share of development, and then maybe ending at 10%.

We got in an uodate today that

"... We’ve had to essentially make a new phone on the new SoC platform, development alone is around £400k"

(Of course a number not know then, that they could only see afterwards)

[claude0001 1,150]

21 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

Remember this is crowdfunding, so WE, and not FxTec bare any risk of our investments.

I am fully aware of that. Crowdfunding is shifting the risk from the company to the backers -- and that is precisely what F(x)tec should have taken advantage of!

In January 2021, they should have declared that, with the SD835 unexpectedly impossible to source, the project had reached a dead-end, and that -- as much of the raised funds had already been spent -- backers could unfortunately NOT be refunded, but would be granted a discount on the Pro2, just entering development.

Then they should have quietly sat down and designed a proper Pro2 -- reusing as many of the parts already purchased for the Pro1-X as possible, but without pressure to actually manufacture and deliver any devices beyond pre-production units.

Finally, once the Pro2 would have matured and be ready for marketing, former Pro1-X backers would receive a 30% discount coupon for the Pro2, maybe even with the option of finally getting their personalized engraving ...

Analysing bad decisions taken and trying to learn from the past is not contrafactual history writing, btw.

[Acurus 17]

1 hour ago, EskeRahn said:

Remember this is crowdfunding, so WE, and not FxTec bare any risk of our investments.

"WE ... bare any risk"? What are you writing here? I am not a part of a crowdfunding. I ordered in May 2020 at the online shop. The info was, I will get the phone within 3 months. I bared no crowdfunding risk! The phone never arrived. And all infomations I got in the last three years were vague, evasive, wrong, partly a lie and stalling, mostly. The Fixtec communication is horrible bad and untrustworthy. Today I received the first info mail since 8 or 9 months. Nothing, absolutely nothing is standing inside this mail. Only garbage. And my request in 2022, to send back my money was never answered.

I am always surprised about your trys here, to write this bad story nice. Sorry for my clearly words. 

[Hook 2,655]

2 minutes ago, Acurus said:

"WE ... bare any risk"? What are you writing here? I am not a part of a crowdfunding. I ordered in May 2020 at the online shop. The info was, I will get the phone within 3 months. I bared no crowdfunding risk! The phone never arrived. And all infomations I got in the last three years were vague, evasive, wrong, partly a lie and stalling, mostly. The Fixtec communication is horrible bad and untrustworthy. Today I received the first info mail since 8 or 9 months. Nothing, absolutely nothing is standing inside this mail. Only garbage. And my request in 2022, to send back my money was never answered.

I am always surprised about your trys here, to write this bad story nice. Sorry for my clearly words. 

Ummm, that statement by @EskeRahn was not in reply to you. You are in a different category.

[steff 41]

1 hour ago, Hook said:

Ummm, that statement by @EskeRahn was not in reply to you. You are in a different category.

After reading the Terms of Sale from Fxtec's online shop, i am shocked how bad the chances are to get any money back for the "buyers".

[sequestris 689]

1 hour ago, steff said:

After reading the Terms of Sale from Fxtec's online shop, i am shocked how bad the chances are to get any money back for the "buyers".

Terms of Sale also state the following. The buyers are covered. I could have waited for the finance team to get in touch with me, but after 5 emails asking for proof of cancellation with no reply other than "I will pass that along to the finance team" I went the other route and contacted my credit card company. Fxtec has not case and can not contest the sale/charge when it's going on 2 years (for me) and they did not provide the product.

Know your rights, and take control of your finances. Even as an IGG backer you still have a valid case for a refund.

[EskeRahn 5,178]

3 hours ago, Acurus said:

I am always surprised about your trys here, to write this bad story nice. Sorry for my clearly words. 

In the one line you quoted I explicitly mentioned crowdfunding, how did yo manage to overlook that??

Those that ordered the Pro1X on FxTec's website OR those that ordered the Pro1 that had their orders changed to the Pro1X, were NOT crowdfunding. Normal orders/pre-orders are covered by consumer rights as it is BUYING and not INVESTING. So they could (and can) cancel at any time. In some countries even cancel after they got it and return it for a refund.

That (as @sequestris pointed out) FxTec had financial issues in actually issuing the refund within a reasonable time-frame does not change that the buyer has a right to get it.

[steff 41]

37 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

In the one line you quoted I explicitly mentioned crowdfunding, how did yo manage to overlook that??

Those that ordered the Pro1X on FxTec's website OR those that ordered the Pro1 that had their orders changed to the Pro1X, were NOT crowdfunding. Normal orders/pre-orders are covered by consumer rights as it is BUYING and not INVESTING. So they could (and can) cancel at any time. In some countries even cancel after they got it and return it for a refund.

That (as @sequestris pointed out) FxTec had financial issues in actually issuing the refund within a reasonable time-frame does not change that the buyer has a right to get it.

To be fair to Acurus, he said that he requested a refund via email in 2022, so he already wanted to use his consumer rights, but Fxtec never answered to his request. So this is a question of getting his right rather than having a right to get a refund.

[EskeRahn 5,178]

14 minutes ago, steff said:

To be fair to Acurus, he said that he requested a refund via email in 2022, so he already wanted to use his consumer rights, but Fxtec never answered to his request. So this is a question of getting his right rather than having a right to get a refund.

Oh indeed, not at all satisfactory when they are unable to fulfil their refund-obligations.

I have no idea what they actually pay for the shipping, but they could be in situation where they have to choose between making twenty(?) people happy sending their phones, for each one person they can issue a refund.

I'm glad I'm not the one that has to prioritise what what order the obligations should be met with the limited money they get in.

[sequestris 689]

18 hours ago, Acurus said:

"WE ... bare any risk"? What are you writing here? I am not a part of a crowdfunding. I ordered in May 2020 at the online shop. The info was, I will get the phone within 3 months. I bared no crowdfunding risk! The phone never arrived. And all infomations I got in the last three years were vague, evasive, wrong, partly a lie and stalling, mostly. The Fixtec communication is horrible bad and untrustworthy. Today I received the first info mail since 8 or 9 months. Nothing, absolutely nothing is standing inside this mail. Only garbage. And my request in 2022, to send back my money was never answered.

I am always surprised about your trys here, to write this bad story nice. Sorry for my clearly words. 

My post should help you
Got My Refund

You can complain, you can post about how they are doing you wrong.
I am not saying that your wants/needs are invalid.

I am saying that from what I have read you tried ONE time in ONE way to get a refund.
They didn't respond.
You know what? The finance team never responded to me either, and my regular contacted wouldn't even talk about it.
So I had choices: suffer/whine/deal...or find another way. I found another way.
Have you tried contacting your bank or CC company?
Fxtec does not have a legal leg to stand on so they are not going to fight your claim.
Easy/breezy/done.

If, after you have taken those steps and still do not have a resolution, please tell us.
 

 

[claude0001 1,150]

On 3/21/2023 at 3:08 PM, claude0001 said:

Actually, reading through the IGG comments, I find now that F(x)tec actually confirmed the "appropriation" theory!

[...]

However, they also state that, as they have manufactured many more devices then needed, there are (still?) enough to deliver to all backers ...

Reading down the IGG comments a bit further, I come to the impression that this is F(x)tec's last stand. They're completely out of money. Their devices sit in Hong Kong with no clearance to ship because F(x)tec are unable to pay the bill. Pro1-Xs "appearing" on the market are due to Expansys acquiring devices as a way to obtain their payment. Probably, F(x)tec are at the point where the few shipments actually taking place are being paid from employees' revenue. 

What a mess.

[EskeRahn 5,178]

1 hour ago, claude0001 said:

What a mess.

Read comments more carefully. Indeed the situation is bad, but they clearly state that they have other projects profiting that are -and for quite some time has been- paying to the project, including for the shipping - though slowly.

But indeed it is hard to gather the bits of info that can be 'hiding' in a reply-chain with someone, I believe I found it in a comment, that had a reply later, and thus need unfold to be found.. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it could have been in one of the dialogues with "Felix"....

[steff 41]

29 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

Read comments more carefully. Indeed the situation is bad, but they clearly state that they have other projects profiting that are -and for quite some time has been- paying to the project, including for the shipping - though slowly.

But indeed it is hard to gather the bits of info that can be 'hiding' in a reply-chain with someone, I believe I found it in a comment, that had a reply later, and thus need unfold to be found.. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it could have been in one of the dialogues with "Felix"....

Project Owner:

"We have other products and services unrelated to smartphones. In fact that’s what funded all of the Pro1 X production."

So if you take this by word, it would mean the investment from backers and the money from buyers financed the SoC change and development, their "other products and services unrelated to smartphones" covered the production. But the shipping is not included? So both of you might be right. Obviously we do not have enough information to really come to any serious conclusion.

[EskeRahn 5,178]

1 minute ago, steff said:

Project Owner:

"We have other products and services unrelated to smartphones. In fact that’s what funded all of the Pro1 X production."

So if you take this by word, it would mean the investment from backers and the money from buyers financed the SoC change and development, their "other products and services unrelated to smartphones" covered the production. But the shipping is not included? So both of you might be right. Obviously we do not have enough information to really come to any serious conclusion.

That was the quote, thanks,, In context it was an answer to why time would help, that there were a dialogue where the quote was a part. As I read the central point  was that they are still dripping money in, and these drops are currently paying for shipping.

[claude0001 1,150]

11 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

Read comments more carefully. Indeed the situation is bad, but they clearly state that they have other projects profiting that are -and for quite some time has been- paying to the project, including for the shipping - though slowly.

Even though they communicate much more openly since a few days ago (which is good), their "careful" phrasing still leaves room for speculation about what is happening, of course.

However that post from "Project owner" I quoted already above seems pretty clear to me:

"[...] shops have obtained stock from our warehouse without our permission or knowledge. This action was taken by our warehouse in an attempt to recover a some of the outstanding balance that they are due to paid by us." (emphasis mine)

and later:

"We are told that 300 devices were given(sold) to the Japanese shop. We understand another 800 or so were committed to them, but this is what we're trying to stop at the moment [...]" (emphasis mine)

So, my interpretation is that, in July last year, Expansys were given all manufactured devices and ordered to store most of them and ship the ~1900 that belong to IGG backers. However, F(x)tec refuse to pay / cannot pay the corresponding invoice. Those must have been the "contractual issues" all along.

Since then, F(x)tec try to scratch money together to ship the phones bit by bit, and try to make us believe that, although things are going slower than expected, everything was under control. However, somehow Expansys do not seem to agree with that salami slicing tactic, and are obviously now ready to take drastic measures to finally get their money. While the initial sale of a batch of Pro1-X on Expansys' own website seems to have been part of some arrangement to generate liquidity, Expansys are now unilaterally appropriating devices without F(x)tec's consent. Besides draining their stock of manufactured devices, the fact that hundreds of Pro1-X are hitting the market at bargain prices will also compromise F(x)tec's ability to sell the remaining ones themselves in a profitable way. That is, should they ever manage to get a grip on them once more.

Things are not under control. Name that situation what you want. I call it a mess.

Edited March 23 by claude0001

[sequestris 689]

I got a text message (not email) so I don't know who it came from, but it said:

"Listen Maya it's not like we never made the devices or tried to get them to you, but things are out of our control right now. They are taking them from the warehouse, inventory is a hot mess, we don't know who has what and we are seeing them pop up on other sites for way less and we can't stop it. We owe these people money and they don't want to wait to let us get things together. Indiego is a pyramid scheme and we never pretended it was different. We just thought things would go differently and we would be able to pull it out. But you got your refund and so will anyone who does what you did. Sadly we cannot stop that either but it's just more money we don't have to ship things. I do not blame you but it sucks for us."

[Hook 2,655]

59 minutes ago, sequestris said:

I got a text message (not email) so I don't know who it came from, but it said:

"Listen Maya it's not like we never made the devices or tried to get them to you, but things are out of our control right now. They are taking them from the warehouse, inventory is a hot mess, we don't know who has what and we are seeing them pop up on other sites for way less and we can't stop it. We owe these people money and they don't want to wait to let us get things together. Indiego is a pyramid scheme and we never pretended it was different. We just thought things would go differently and we would be able to pull it out. But you got your refund and so will anyone who does what you did. Sadly we cannot stop that either but it's just more money we don't have to ship things. I do not blame you but it sucks for us."

What an odd, and oddly personal, text, especially to be anonymous.  It may be quite accurate, but seems to be from the perspective of a lower down employee panicking as they get inundated with complaining emails.  The oddest comment is the one about IGG being a pyramid scheme... it would only be a pyramid scheme if it promised a product (which would require new sales to pay for old orders), which it explicitly does not.  Requiring funds from other sources because your logistics contractor changed the terms of the contract does not make it a pyramid scheme.  Lol.

[claude0001 1,150]

22 minutes ago, Hook said:

It may be quite accurate, but seems to be from the perspective of a lower down employee panicking as they get inundated with complaining emails.

It does confirm what I wrote above almost to the letter, even including the words "out of control" and "mess". And I have no behind-the-scenes insight. So, yes, I think this is a quite realistic picture of the situation.

22 minutes ago, Hook said:

about IGG being a pyramid scheme...

Maybe it could be classified a pyramid scheme in the sense that IGG earn their income from companies running their campaigns through them, with many of these campaigns failing, backers and/or companies loosing their money, and with only IGG themselves making profit in the end.

Edited March 23 by claude0001

[Casey 259]

1 hour ago, sequestris said:

I got a text message (not email) so I don't know who it came from, but it said:

"Listen Maya it's not like we never made the devices or tried to get them to you, but things are out of our control right now. They are taking them from the warehouse, inventory is a hot mess, we don't know who has what and we are seeing them pop up on other sites for way less and we can't stop it. We owe these people money and they don't want to wait to let us get things together. Indiego is a pyramid scheme and we never pretended it was different. We just thought things would go differently and we would be able to pull it out. But you got your refund and so will anyone who does what you did. Sadly we cannot stop that either but it's just more money we don't have to ship things. I do not blame you but it sucks for us."

Yeah, this isn't from us... Confirmed with our support team and even Liangchen, this isn't how we respond to customers, and definitely not via text message. Please ignore.

[Hook 2,655]

12 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

Maybe it could be classified a pyramid scheme in the sense that IGG earn their income from companies running their campaigns through them, with many of these campaigns failing, backers and/or companies loosing their money, and with only IGG themselves making profit in the end.

Sorry, no.  IGG is a platform that provides a service. That's like saying, when your website business fails, the company that hosted the website and made money off you is a pyramid scheme. 🙄

[claude0001 1,150]

12 minutes ago, Hook said:

Sorry, no.  IGG is a platform that provides a service.

Of course. There is a lot of frustration resonating in that message, wherever it came from.

[EskeRahn 5,178]

7 hours ago, claude0001 said:

Things are not under control. Name that situation what you want. I call it a mess.

When money are owed without an agreement on how to pay the debt, things do get chaotic, as it could seem rather arbitrary what order the creditors gets serviced. So I do not disagree.

But at the least there is a known source of funding that drip in, though we obviously could all wish they had funds to finish the project faster.

[Rob. S. 1,559]

6 hours ago, Hook said:

The oddest comment is the one about IGG being a pyramid scheme... it would only be a pyramid scheme if it promised a product (which would require new sales to pay for old orders), which it explicitly does not

While I still don't see any evidence that Fxtec would have done so—not even the anonymous text message author provides something like that—IGG has indeed been abused before for something similar to a pyramid scheme, and I think their terms and conditions make it easier than, say, Kickstarter.

Those of us who are a bit into photography might know the brand name 'Meyer Optik Görlitz', the name of a traditional German lens manufacturer whose origins are in the late 19th century. While they were quite productive under different names and in different cooperations in East Germany's GDR era, their remains disappeared in 1991 (like a lot of East German photographic history, by the way, after the annexation to West Germany). Years later, in 2014, a German company named net SE somehow acquired the brand name and tried to revive it. At first, they just rebranded cheap Chinese and Russian lenses and sold them with a ridiculous premium as 'Meyer Optik Görlitz' lenses "Made in Germany" (later claiming they had been buying only the parts and assembling them in Germany). Then they actually started their own production line of rebuilt classic Meyer designs, rather simple ones, slightly modernized, most notably the 'Trioplan'. (Funny thing is, until today, no one really knows where the manufacturing site was.) And they added more. At first, they introduced new lens designs on Kickstarter. Later, they moved over to Indiegogo. At least back then, contrary to Kickstarter, it was possible on Indiegogo to introduce new products before the old ones were actually delivered. Even though they called ridiculous prices for those lenses, the company wasn't profitable. At some point, they were introducing new lenses just to collect money to fund the production of the previous ones. In 2018, they folded, after they had to admit that most orders could not be fulfilled anymore. (Later in 2018, a respectable, small German optics firm bought the remains including the brand name and restarted the production of improved genuine Meyer lens designs, and it seem's they're still doing well.)  

Edited March 23 by Rob. S.