Pro¹ X – state of production and delivery

[EskeRahn 5,459]

1 hour ago, 749121 said:

I'm basically just trying to tell myself that shit happens, and just to let it go and put the whole thing down to experience.  Which is a hell of a lot easier said than done!

I guess it is the elusiveness, as we are kept in a state of you will get it shortly that makes it harder to not simple forget about the IGG investment. And then be happy if/when we get it despite all odds in the end. I'm a "super early bird" BTW, but was so optimistic as to choose one of the nationalised layouts (Scandinavian)...

[Acurus 17]

Another batch with 800 non authorized Pro1?

[VaZso 1,998]

Current update (here):

Quote

by FX Technology

Mar 21, 2023 • 11:19AM

29 minutes ago

Pro1-X - March Update

Dear Pro1-X backers,

Your feedback is important to us, and we have taken your comments into consideration by sharing as much detail as possible. 

Here’s our latest shipping information:

• We have shipped a total of 623 units to date.
• A total of 1332 devices are remaining to be shipped.

What contributed to the delays? - 

Devices for the remaining backers are ready and in Hong Kong. Due to ongoing difficulties with our shipping partner, we are working through getting them shipped as soon as possible. We cannot share further details as we do not want to breach business confidentiality. 

Per our previous update, contribution IDs ranging from 568 to 1126 are currently being shipped out. We would like to highlight these are the Pro1-X model 256/8GB QWERTY keyboard only. 

Many of you have been eagerly anticipating the arrival of your new device, and we want to assure you that we are working hard to resolve all orders as quickly as possible. 

OS developments

We are currently collaborating with community members on reproducing problems related to VoLTE/ping drops for further investigation. We have provided a user manual in our beta-testing Telegram group to record logs when issues relating to the modem happen. We would like to invite all backers who have a Pro1-X in hand to join our beta-testing group so we can work together to solve this problem! Please note that the disclaimer for this scheme has been altered so you won’t lose warranty upon flashing a beta-firmware from us. In very rare cases where your Pro1-X is bricked during the flashing process, we assure you that we will work with you to resolve it. 

On another note, as we are also investigating the battery protection issue, we would like to carefully remind you to always ensure there is some level of charge in your Pro1-X - even if you don’t use it. At times, the battery can likely go into a sleep state that would require a jolt to activate again. During this time, your phone will not boot and will not charge. If you’ve encountered this, please get in touch with us at info at fxtec.com.

We apologise for the inconvenience, and we appreciate your understanding and patience throughout.

Team Fxtec

 

[zundappchef 100]

This is how i see it and im probably wrong

so their phones have been sold by the shipping company that has them since july 2022
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/pro1-x-smartphone-functionality-choice-control/x/25381237#/updates/40
Fx already paid them but they want more money because of shipping prices going up 
But Fx tec cant or don't want to pay more money

Meantime the shipping company just sold the stock  because of payment issues to people who are interested and shipped them to Japan (  the japanese company is not at fault since they might have purchased the devices without knowing)
Now the shipping partner might be able to ship but might not have any devices 😅
In terms its not FX tec that's doing stuff wrong or making false promises . Its the partner that does the shipping who is screwing us the backers of the device and Fx Tec
The amount they are screwing the backers and Fx tec Might lead to this project being a failure

Must be extremely frustrating to FX tec and if this is correct they get all the hate and blame while its the shipping company's fault
If  this is true and FX tec would ask me to pay for the shipping again i would do it !

IF i was FX tec i would ask for my money back 

[claude0001 1,340]

25 minutes ago, zundappchef said:

Meantime the shipping company just sold the stock  because of payment issues to people who are interested and shipped them to Japan [...] Now the shipping partner might be able to ship but might not have any devices 😅

I also once had a theory along the lines of Expansys "appropriating" part of the stock . However, F(x)tec now explicitly state that at least all IGG-backed phones are "ready and in Hong Kong".

[EskeRahn 5,459]

54 minutes ago, zundappchef said:

Must be extremely frustrating to FX tec and if this is correct they get all the hate and blame while its the shipping company's fault

We do not know what terms their contract has/had, end they might not even be at liberty to disclose it.

So though 'appropriating' may look like stealing to us as recipients, it might be an agreed procedure within some small prints of the contract.

We do not know what the payment terms are/were either, it might not be as simple as FxTec paid all shipping in advance, and any raise is the shippers issue.

[Casey 321]

50 minutes ago, zundappchef said:

This is how i see it and im probably wrong

so their phones have been sold by the shipping company that has them since july 2022
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/pro1-x-smartphone-functionality-choice-control/x/25381237#/updates/40
Fx already paid them but they want more money because of shipping prices going up 
But Fx tec cant or don't want to pay more money

Meantime the shipping company just sold the stock  because of payment issues to people who are interested and shipped them to Japan (  the japanese company is not at fault since they might have purchased the devices without knowing)
Now the shipping partner might be able to ship but might not have any devices 😅
In terms its not FX tec that's doing stuff wrong or making false promises . Its the partner that does the shipping who is screwing us the backers of the device and Fx Tec
The amount they are screwing the backers and Fx tec Might lead to this project being a failure

Must be extremely frustrating to FX tec and if this is correct they get all the hate and blame while its the shipping company's fault
If  this is true and FX tec would ask me to pay for the shipping again i would do it !

IF i was FX tec i would ask for my money back 

Thanks for your understanding. It's been a hectic journey but we still 100% have confidence in shipping all orders/contributions to everyone.

16 minutes ago, steff said:

Imo the campaign owner is always responsible. It is a part of the campaign to choose business partners, who are reliable, to negotiate contracts, maybe including contractual penalties, and a lot of other things.

Yes, you're right. But there were some unpredicted events that really impacted this project, namely, the SoC change - where we spent nearly half the fundraised amount. If those funds were still available, all problems would be solved. 

We've also addressed some key questions people have been raising in the IGG comments section. If you have time, please have a read.

[EskeRahn 5,459]

7 minutes ago, Casey said:

Thanks for your understanding. It's been a hectic journey but we still 100% have confidence in shipping all orders/contributions to everyone.

I wonder if some clever ways of remedying the shipping costs could be thought up?

What if we somehow could order spare parts, and the money for those were used to send the devices 'immediately', and we then waited for the spare parts to be produced&sent in stead?

I for one would like to have some spare parts. e.g. usb-boards, and also keyboard-tops and keyboard mat. But as the need is not imminent a delay of send for even several months would be totally acceptable (to me).

[Hook 3,018]

3 minutes ago, steff said:

imho Fxtec should have ensured to get this soc by buying and storing theese themself.

I believe they did get assurances before the campaign, but that's why the crowdfunding was needed. As soon as the money was released, they paid for the order.  And the supplier accepted (and didn't return that payment). This is why crowdfunding is gambling... Unfortunately, the theme song of this crowdfunding campaign is one of those blues songs where the singer intones "If it wasn't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all."  😟

[claude0001 1,340]

21 minutes ago, Casey said:

[...] But there were some unpredicted events that really impacted this project, namely, the SoC change - where we spent nearly half the fundraised amount. If those funds were still available, all problems would be solved. 

We've also addressed some key questions people have been raising in the IGG comments section. [...]

I agree with some of the IGG comments that it would have been better to end the project when it became clear that the SD835 could no longer be acquired. I wonder if some of the Pro1-X's problems could have been avoided, had it not been developed under the pressure of having to deliver it to all backers ...

I understand that it is easy to feel smart in hindsight, and that decisions made two years ago cannot be undone anyhow. But, in the IGG comments, you argue that continuing the project based on the new SD662 had literally been the only option, as the SoC change "only became apparent 1.5+ years into the campaign". I do not see how this is true.

The fundraising campaign started in October 2020 and officially ended in December 2020. According to your own timeline on IGG, re-design of the mainboard for the 662-Pro1-X started as early as in January 2021. That's just one month after the funding had been raised, based on the assumption that a trivial 835-Pro1 variant would be made ...

[Hook 3,018]

19 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

the SoC change "only became apparent 1.5+ years into the campaign". I do not see how this is true.

Yeah, saw that.  Either the person who wrote that mistakenly put years instead of months, or they think the campaign started with the original Pro 1.  The Pro 1 was not crowdfunded.

[claude0001 1,340]

1 hour ago, claude0001 said:

I also once had a theory along the lines of Expansys "appropriating" part of the stock . However, F(x)tec now explicitly state that at least all IGG-backed phones are "ready and in Hong Kong".

Actually, reading through the IGG comments, I find now that F(x)tec actually confirmed the "appropriation" theory!

F(x)tec (@IGG):

Quote

[...] shops have obtained stock from our warehouse without our permission or knowledge. This action was taken by our warehouse in an attempt to recover a some of the outstanding balance that they are due to paid by us. [...]

However, they also state that, as they have manufactured many more devices then needed, there are (still?) enough to deliver to all backers ...

[EskeRahn 5,459]

3 hours ago, claude0001 said:

I agree with some of the IGG comments that it would have been better to end the project when it became clear that the SD835 could no longer be acquired. I wonder if some of the Pro1-X's problems could have been avoided, had it not been developed under the pressure of having to deliver it to all backers ...

If we go further down this road of contrafactual history, how large a fraction would you have expected to get back as a refund? It certainly could not be 100%...
Remember this is crowdfunding, so WE, and not FxTec bare any risk of our investments.

We do not know the exact time line on how long after they paid the swindlers to they found out that they have been swindled, and realised they had no alternative.

Hence nor do we know how much other stuff were non-refundable ordered before they knew, in principle it could be all parts.

I bet that for many suppliers it would be possible to ask them to hold an order not yet started and request them to deliver something (slightly) different later (E.g. some modified backs). But many suppliers would be reluctant to give even a partial refund, to a one-time tiny customer...

Remember the low volumes here, so any penalty (reduced/lacking refund) by suppliers added up could be a large fraction of the individual price when spread out.

So what if that ended up where they could offer us a 30% refund? (just to pick an arbitrary number)

In hindsight some might today prefer that we have taken a low percentage, but at the time, the 662 variant would be a bargain over a small refund. And they could not have given us the choice, it would be all in or all out, As the developing cost of the new variant needs to be spread out, so if only some choose a refund they would still have to pay their share of development, and then maybe ending at 10%.

We got in an uodate today that

"... We’ve had to essentially make a new phone on the new SoC platform, development alone is around £400k"

(Of course a number not know then, that they could only see afterwards)

[claude0001 1,340]

21 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

Remember this is crowdfunding, so WE, and not FxTec bare any risk of our investments.

I am fully aware of that. Crowdfunding is shifting the risk from the company to the backers -- and that is precisely what F(x)tec should have taken advantage of!

In January 2021, they should have declared that, with the SD835 unexpectedly impossible to source, the project had reached a dead-end, and that -- as much of the raised funds had already been spent -- backers could unfortunately NOT be refunded, but would be granted a discount on the Pro2, just entering development.

Then they should have quietly sat down and designed a proper Pro2 -- reusing as many of the parts already purchased for the Pro1-X as possible, but without pressure to actually manufacture and deliver any devices beyond pre-production units.

Finally, once the Pro2 would have matured and be ready for marketing, former Pro1-X backers would receive a 30% discount coupon for the Pro2, maybe even with the option of finally getting their personalized engraving ...

Analysing bad decisions taken and trying to learn from the past is not contrafactual history writing, btw.

[Acurus 17]

1 hour ago, EskeRahn said:

Remember this is crowdfunding, so WE, and not FxTec bare any risk of our investments.

"WE ... bare any risk"? What are you writing here? I am not a part of a crowdfunding. I ordered in May 2020 at the online shop. The info was, I will get the phone within 3 months. I bared no crowdfunding risk! The phone never arrived. And all infomations I got in the last three years were vague, evasive, wrong, partly a lie and stalling, mostly. The Fixtec communication is horrible bad and untrustworthy. Today I received the first info mail since 8 or 9 months. Nothing, absolutely nothing is standing inside this mail. Only garbage. And my request in 2022, to send back my money was never answered.

I am always surprised about your trys here, to write this bad story nice. Sorry for my clearly words. 

[Hook 3,018]

2 minutes ago, Acurus said:

"WE ... bare any risk"? What are you writing here? I am not a part of a crowdfunding. I ordered in May 2020 at the online shop. The info was, I will get the phone within 3 months. I bared no crowdfunding risk! The phone never arrived. And all infomations I got in the last three years were vague, evasive, wrong, partly a lie and stalling, mostly. The Fixtec communication is horrible bad and untrustworthy. Today I received the first info mail since 8 or 9 months. Nothing, absolutely nothing is standing inside this mail. Only garbage. And my request in 2022, to send back my money was never answered.

I am always surprised about your trys here, to write this bad story nice. Sorry for my clearly words. 

Ummm, that statement by @EskeRahn was not in reply to you. You are in a different category.

[sequestris 710]

1 hour ago, steff said:

After reading the Terms of Sale from Fxtec's online shop, i am shocked how bad the chances are to get any money back for the "buyers".

Terms of Sale also state the following. The buyers are covered. I could have waited for the finance team to get in touch with me, but after 5 emails asking for proof of cancellation with no reply other than "I will pass that along to the finance team" I went the other route and contacted my credit card company. Fxtec has not case and can not contest the sale/charge when it's going on 2 years (for me) and they did not provide the product.

Know your rights, and take control of your finances. Even as an IGG backer you still have a valid case for a refund.

[EskeRahn 5,459]

3 hours ago, Acurus said:

I am always surprised about your trys here, to write this bad story nice. Sorry for my clearly words. 

In the one line you quoted I explicitly mentioned crowdfunding, how did yo manage to overlook that??

Those that ordered the Pro1X on FxTec's website OR those that ordered the Pro1 that had their orders changed to the Pro1X, were NOT crowdfunding. Normal orders/pre-orders are covered by consumer rights as it is BUYING and not INVESTING. So they could (and can) cancel at any time. In some countries even cancel after they got it and return it for a refund.

That (as @sequestris pointed out) FxTec had financial issues in actually issuing the refund within a reasonable time-frame does not change that the buyer has a right to get it.

[EskeRahn 5,459]

14 minutes ago, steff said:

To be fair to Acurus, he said that he requested a refund via email in 2022, so he already wanted to use his consumer rights, but Fxtec never answered to his request. So this is a question of getting his right rather than having a right to get a refund.

Oh indeed, not at all satisfactory when they are unable to fulfil their refund-obligations.

I have no idea what they actually pay for the shipping, but they could be in situation where they have to choose between making twenty(?) people happy sending their phones, for each one person they can issue a refund.

I'm glad I'm not the one that has to prioritise what what order the obligations should be met with the limited money they get in.

[sequestris 710]

18 hours ago, Acurus said:

"WE ... bare any risk"? What are you writing here? I am not a part of a crowdfunding. I ordered in May 2020 at the online shop. The info was, I will get the phone within 3 months. I bared no crowdfunding risk! The phone never arrived. And all infomations I got in the last three years were vague, evasive, wrong, partly a lie and stalling, mostly. The Fixtec communication is horrible bad and untrustworthy. Today I received the first info mail since 8 or 9 months. Nothing, absolutely nothing is standing inside this mail. Only garbage. And my request in 2022, to send back my money was never answered.

I am always surprised about your trys here, to write this bad story nice. Sorry for my clearly words. 

My post should help you
Got My Refund

You can complain, you can post about how they are doing you wrong.
I am not saying that your wants/needs are invalid.

I am saying that from what I have read you tried ONE time in ONE way to get a refund.
They didn't respond.
You know what? The finance team never responded to me either, and my regular contacted wouldn't even talk about it.
So I had choices: suffer/whine/deal...or find another way. I found another way.
Have you tried contacting your bank or CC company?
Fxtec does not have a legal leg to stand on so they are not going to fight your claim.
Easy/breezy/done.

If, after you have taken those steps and still do not have a resolution, please tell us.
 

 

[claude0001 1,340]

On 3/21/2023 at 3:08 PM, claude0001 said:

Actually, reading through the IGG comments, I find now that F(x)tec actually confirmed the "appropriation" theory!

[...]

However, they also state that, as they have manufactured many more devices then needed, there are (still?) enough to deliver to all backers ...

Reading down the IGG comments a bit further, I come to the impression that this is F(x)tec's last stand. They're completely out of money. Their devices sit in Hong Kong with no clearance to ship because F(x)tec are unable to pay the bill. Pro1-Xs "appearing" on the market are due to Expansys acquiring devices as a way to obtain their payment. Probably, F(x)tec are at the point where the few shipments actually taking place are being paid from employees' revenue. 

What a mess.

[EskeRahn 5,459]

1 hour ago, claude0001 said:

What a mess.

Read comments more carefully. Indeed the situation is bad, but they clearly state that they have other projects profiting that are -and for quite some time has been- paying to the project, including for the shipping - though slowly.

But indeed it is hard to gather the bits of info that can be 'hiding' in a reply-chain with someone, I believe I found it in a comment, that had a reply later, and thus need unfold to be found.. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it could have been in one of the dialogues with "Felix"....

[EskeRahn 5,459]

1 minute ago, steff said:

Project Owner:

"We have other products and services unrelated to smartphones. In fact that’s what funded all of the Pro1 X production."

So if you take this by word, it would mean the investment from backers and the money from buyers financed the SoC change and development, their "other products and services unrelated to smartphones" covered the production. But the shipping is not included? So both of you might be right. Obviously we do not have enough information to really come to any serious conclusion.

That was the quote, thanks,, In context it was an answer to why time would help, that there were a dialogue where the quote was a part. As I read the central point  was that they are still dripping money in, and these drops are currently paying for shipping.

[claude0001 1,340]

11 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

Read comments more carefully. Indeed the situation is bad, but they clearly state that they have other projects profiting that are -and for quite some time has been- paying to the project, including for the shipping - though slowly.

Even though they communicate much more openly since a few days ago (which is good), their "careful" phrasing still leaves room for speculation about what is happening, of course.

However that post from "Project owner" I quoted already above seems pretty clear to me:

"[...] shops have obtained stock from our warehouse without our permission or knowledge. This action was taken by our warehouse in an attempt to recover a some of the outstanding balance that they are due to paid by us." (emphasis mine)

and later:

"We are told that 300 devices were given(sold) to the Japanese shop. We understand another 800 or so were committed to them, but this is what we're trying to stop at the moment [...]" (emphasis mine)

So, my interpretation is that, in July last year, Expansys were given all manufactured devices and ordered to store most of them and ship the ~1900 that belong to IGG backers. However, F(x)tec refuse to pay / cannot pay the corresponding invoice. Those must have been the "contractual issues" all along.

Since then, F(x)tec try to scratch money together to ship the phones bit by bit, and try to make us believe that, although things are going slower than expected, everything was under control. However, somehow Expansys do not seem to agree with that salami slicing tactic, and are obviously now ready to take drastic measures to finally get their money. While the initial sale of a batch of Pro1-X on Expansys' own website seems to have been part of some arrangement to generate liquidity, Expansys are now unilaterally appropriating devices without F(x)tec's consent. Besides draining their stock of manufactured devices, the fact that hundreds of Pro1-X are hitting the market at bargain prices will also compromise F(x)tec's ability to sell the remaining ones themselves in a profitable way. That is, should they ever manage to get a grip on them once more.

Things are not under control. Name that situation what you want. I call it a mess.

Edited March 23, 2023 by claude0001

[sequestris 710]

I got a text message (not email) so I don't know who it came from, but it said:

"Listen Maya it's not like we never made the devices or tried to get them to you, but things are out of our control right now. They are taking them from the warehouse, inventory is a hot mess, we don't know who has what and we are seeing them pop up on other sites for way less and we can't stop it. We owe these people money and they don't want to wait to let us get things together. Indiego is a pyramid scheme and we never pretended it was different. We just thought things would go differently and we would be able to pull it out. But you got your refund and so will anyone who does what you did. Sadly we cannot stop that either but it's just more money we don't have to ship things. I do not blame you but it sucks for us."