On the pre-production status

[sixaxis 36]

10 hours ago, Rob. S. said:

What he was very politely hinting at, to which I, personally, am less inclined, is that if you don't come up with a better answer on "how else to explain it" yourself, you're either suffering from a severe lack of imagination, or you're absolutely intent on throwing mud at Fxtec even though you damn well know that there are more possible explanations. 

My imagination is better than patience. I am a software and hardwear engineer. Also a co-founder of a small company that produces equipment for aviation. Believe me, no one would ever contact my company if I had promised one delivery time, but I would have done another time. This is not serious. And do not forget gentlemen, while we are waiting here, our phone is "aging" snapdragon 835 - a chip that is almost 3 years old. I do not want to water anyone with dirt, I sincerely hoped to get my device in 4-6 weeks.

Edited January 11, 2020 by sixaxis

[Guest]

This belongs also in this thread.

 

[Zamasu 258]

On 1/9/2020 at 10:58 PM, Artemis-kun said:

Maybe try your hand at designing and manufacturing yourselves, then come back and play.

This fallacy again huh. I already did, what's your point? That apparently it's okay to slip dates by half a year? That delays are bound to happen? That communication like this is the only way things can go? Getting real tired of this.

16 hours ago, Artemis-kun said:

And, for the record, I have pre-ordered things before that have wound up delayed over a year beyond the original release date. It was frustrating but I didn't bother wasting my time spewing bile all over the recordable internet like the people in this thread have been, and guess what? I got the product eventually, and it was good, and I'm thoroughly pleased with it. Patience is a virtue. What's going on in this thread is not a good look for any of you. For shame.

And that means this time you're guaranteed to get it? This is a startup, and there are risks involved. It's absolutely possible that they'll not deliver all devices, though I hope F(x)tec will prosper obviously.

16 hours ago, itsdevilslettuce said:

I hope this device isn't all just one huge hoax … with delays upon delays and the lack of information regarding the delays makes me think it is...

 

but with that said I'm still waiting. I wont ask for a refund just yet … I know it's coming

 

.... shortly

It's not a "hoax", that would imply they planned to never deliver and just run with the money. They've already delivered (a small number of) devices, and I still think they're trying their best to deliver all of them. They might fail, but I don't think that chance is very significant, and it definitely wouldn't be planned.

16 hours ago, Doktor Oswaldo said:

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree that everybody should doubt the statements.
I just does not help to demanding stuff in that usual angry internet user tone.
And yeah it is handled shitty. But we can talk about what is shitty we are grown ups.

Well I know we already did and it did change nothing. But so will ranting.
But it is a different thing to criticism the company than to suggest @Erik does say things which he doesn't think are true.
I strongly believe @Erik does what he can and says what he knows and is allowed to share.

The only thing we get from treating @Erik like a liar is that he will not comment anymore!

I think most people here that are calling people liars, are calling F(x)tec as an entity liars. If anybody in that chain would say something untruthful, and the others would unknowingly propogate that lie, they themselves wouldn't be lying but the entity as a whole would still. This is getting into semantic territory really, there have been statements that were untrue that people doubt were unknown to be untrue. People believe those statements are lies, and you can't really fault them for that since there's no proof that they weren't lies (just as there's also no proof they are lies, but they are beliefs anyway).

Overall, I think the tone might be a bit too harsh, but the tone of some of the people on the other side is just as bad really. Some of the things you pointed out as not being constructive criticism is still totally constructive criticism, it's just a bit harsher in tone but that doesn't make it non-constructive. It would be non-constructive if they didn't offer any way for the other party to improve and just attacked them, but they totally offered a way to improve.

[Guest]

I have to agree with what has just been posted. It is a bit strange that when we start asking legitimate questions about what is going on, we are immediately classified as "paranoid". And this by the moderator of the forum, which I think otherwise has been doing a very nice job on this forum

[EskeRahn 5,460]

24 minutes ago, Zamasu said:

People believe those statements are lies, and you can't really fault them for that since there's no proof that they weren't lies (just as there's also no proof they are lies, but they are beliefs anyway)

Well this describes sort of in the core of any conspiracy theory or religion. An unfounded claim that can neither be proven nor disproven.

So many logical deductions start with an assumption, that people tend to forget the assumption was there. You even see this in what is seen as science. You build a logical self-consistent structure, but forget that it is based on assumptions. Astronomy is a clear example, forgetting that they got several basic assumptions. e.g. "constants of nature", assuming that these are really constant over the entire universe, and in all its lifespan. Some religions starts with the assumption of one or more all powerful god(s), and deduce their world view based on that.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

5 minutes ago, cmar said:

I have to agree with what has just been posted. It is a bit strange that when we start asking legitimate questions about what is going on, we are immediately classified as "paranoid". And this by the moderator of the forum, which I think otherwise has been doing a very nice job on this forum

Please note that I'm independent, so don't blame F(x)tec for anything I write.

[Zamasu 258]

25 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

Well this describes sort of in the core of any conspiracy theory or religion. An unfounded claim that can neither be proven nor disproven.

So many logical deductions start with an assumption, that people tend to forget the assumption was there. You even see this in what is seen as science. You build a logical self-consistent structure, but forget that it is based on assumptions. Astronomy is a clear example, forgetting that they got several basic assumptions. e.g. "constants of nature", assuming that these are really constant over the entire universe, and in all its lifespan. Some religions starts with the assumption of one or more all powerful god(s), and deduce their world view based on that.

You do realize this also works the other way around, right? There's no proof that they weren't lies, and it practically can't be proven nor disproven since that would require in-depth internal information on the production status and such which they're very unlikely to share. The assumption in that case is that F(x)tec isn't lying, but there's proof of that for some of these individual statements. Sure there are previous situations in which they were truthful and honest, like offering refunds when the keyboard mod crowdfund didn't go according to plan, but that's not proof that these individual statements aren't lies.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

1 minute ago, Zamasu said:

You do realize this also works the other way around, right? There's no proof that they weren't lies, and it practically can't be proven nor disproven since that would require in-depth internal information on the production status and such which they're very unlikely to share. The assumption in that case is that F(x)tec isn't lying, but there's proof of that for some of these individual statements. Sure there are previous situations in which they were truthful and honest, like offering refunds when the keyboard mod crowdfund didn't go according to plan, but that's not proof that these individual statements aren't lies.

Yes exactly! That is the point! We are concluding on assumptions. Some seem to assume they are crooks and deduce from that, I assume they are honest and deduce from that (as a Dane I'm a little handicapped here, we generally trust people unless we see they do things that proves they were not worhty of our trust). Nor I nor they can prove or disprove the point of view with the information we got. It is like arguing between religions - totally fruitless.

[Gon009 70]

I find it amusing that Unihertz Titan already sent their phones and still they had more than double amount of preorders than Pro1 while not many people got their Pro1 yet. Some people are trying to sell their Titans for absurd prices to make money on it. I heard that main issues are software but from hardware side the phone seems great which a plus over Pro1 flawed design choices because software can be always fixed unlike hardware.

 

Btw. I'm 100% sure that there were no Beta testers at all for Pro1 and it was just PR move to show that something was "happening".

Edited January 11, 2020 by Gon009

[michael.bosscha 142]

I don't find it amusing at all. The Titan is a "simple" form factor. The Pro1 involves more construction than that slab, so I'm not surprised the Titan is in the wild faster than the Pro1...

[Tim6263 134]

49 minutes ago, Gon009 said:

I find it amusing that Unihertz Titan already sent their phones 

UR behind the times 😪 this was mentioned yesterday:

And already given a credible response:

On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2020 at 6:41 AM, Artemis-kun said:
The thing with Unihertz is they are a Chinese company based in Shanghai, so of course they get automatic priority over any other companies looking to do business in China....

[Rob. S. 1,661]

3 hours ago, Zamasu said:

This is a startup, and there are risks involved.

Yes, indeed. And you knew that when you pre-ordered, didn't you? No-one forced you to. You could have just waited until GA. 

3 hours ago, Zamasu said:

There's no proof that they weren't lies

In constitutional states the general principle is to give the accused the benefit of doubt (in dubio pro reo), as long as there is no evidence against them. 

One of my most important IT forums which is, all in all, moderated liberally, has a general rule, though, of not allowing an accusation of lie at all. That's on the simple grounds that it is significantly harder to tell whether something was deliberate than to know, subsequently, that something turned out not to be the truth – and if in doubt, pro reo. 

Accusations which are not backed by evidence do not get better through repetition – and tend to turn themselves against the speaker.
 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Rob. S.

[Rob. S. 1,661]

7 hours ago, sixaxis said:

I am a software and hardwear engineer. Also a co-founder of a small company that produces equipment for aviation

Then you should be aware of the differences between that and a company like F(x)tec. Differences which substantiate different judgements about delays for both, the perhaps most obvious being one sounds more like B2B and the other is B2C. If you cannot see that for yourself, or what such differences actually mean, I wish you good luck with your small company, which you then might need more than you might like.

P.S.: I would have ordered the Pro¹ for the price they were asking even if it would have come with the Snapdragon 636 I've currently got in my Moto Z3 Play, which is already more than I need. That it is "only" an 835 is really the least of my concerns and I'm quite sure most of F(x)tec's customers, with what they really will use their device for, would be served just as well with even less than that 835.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Rob. S.

[Gon009 70]

1 hour ago, michael.bosscha said:

I don't find it amusing at all. The Titan is a "simple" form factor. The Pro1 involves more construction than that slab, so I'm not surprised the Titan is in the wild faster than the Pro1...

The problem with Pro1 is that most design flaws are not related to being a slider. Bad placement of right side buttons(the worst I've seen in any smartphone), bad camera button(the worst I've seen in any phone, there's no press feeling between "focus" and "make photo" stages), loose sim tray that makes sounds, curved screen that in my case I can lift with nails at the sides and only one flaw that the Pro1 has because of being a slider, the wobble on the bottom of my unit, is there because the bottom part of the phone lacks the second support like the top part. It can't be fixed with simple software update.

 

57 minutes ago, Tim6263 said:

UR behind the times 😪 this was mentioned yesterday:

I'm not visiting this forum regularly.

57 minutes ago, Tim6263 said:

On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2020 at 6:41 AM, Artemis-kun said:
The thing with Unihertz is they are a Chinese company based in Shanghai, so of course they get automatic priority over any other companies looking to do business in China....

~200 units in almost half year vs 6000 units in two months is still a big difference.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Gon009

[EskeRahn 5,460]

2 hours ago, Gon009 said:

I find it amusing that Unihertz Titan already sent their phones and still they had more than double amount of preorders than Pro1 while not many people got their Pro1 yet. Some people are trying to sell their Titans for absurd prices to make money on it. I heard that main issues are software but from hardware side the phone seems great which a plus over Pro1 flawed design choices because software can be always fixed unlike hardware.

 

Btw. I'm 100% sure that there were no Beta testers at all for Pro1 and it was just PR move to show that something was "happening".

As of comments previously in the thread, they just started retail sales before serving the pre orders...

And there is nothing "flawed" in the Pro1 design. It would be just as silly at to claim that it is a "flaw" of the Titan that you need to open it to use the display.. To be fair the Pro1 just targets a user group that want a phone with a keyboard and not an ultra portable pc with phone capabilities. Different target groups, though with overlap. No need to bash either.

And @michael.bosscha I would not call the hinge of the Titan simpler, just more traditional. Actually I think it is harder to make a connection that can last for as many openings as a phone gets with a traditional hinge than what is needed for the Pro1. For a Laptop the connection through the hinge is usually the weakest spot.

[EskeRahn 5,460]

1 hour ago, Gon009 said:

The problem with Pro1 is that most design flaws are not related to being a slider. Bad placement of right side buttons(the worst I've seen in any smartphone), bad camera button(the worst I've seen in any phone, there's no press feeling between "focus" and "make photo" stages), loose sim tray that makes sounds, curved screen that in my case I can lift with nails at the sides and only one flaw that the Pro1 has because of being a slider, the wobble on the bottom of my unit, is there because the bottom part of the phone lacks the second support like the top part. It can't be fixed with simple software update.

I'm no fan of the letter-shifted qwertY either, but it hardly a flaw. If you are in the EU you could just go for the qwertZ. That you are not a fan of the curved screen does not make it a flaw. I'm not sure I understand what you mean can "wooble" on your unit. Is it that it is not closing the two halves with a tight fit, or something else?

[EskeRahn 5,460]

1 hour ago, Rob. S. said:

P.S.: I would have ordered the Pro¹ for the price they were asking even if it would have come with the Snapdragon 636 I've currently got in my Moto Z3 Play, which is already more than I need. That it is "only" an 835 is really the least of my concerns and I'm quite sure most of F(x)tec's customers, with what they really will use their device for, would be served just as well with even less than that 835.

I think you are spot on, on our current needs for the large majority (if not all) of us interested in the Pro1. BUT if there will not be a Pro2 in a couple of years, then the Pro1 might have to last for ten years, and if so we would like it as 'modern' as possible to last usable as long as possible.

[Gon009 70]

51 minutes ago, EskeRahn said:

I'm no fan of the letter-shifted qwertY either, but it hardly a flaw. If you are in the EU you could just go for the qwertZ. That you are not a fan of the curved screen does not make it a flaw. I'm not sure I understand what you mean can "wooble" on your unit. Is it that it is not closing the two halves with a tight fit, or something else?

I did not mention letter shifted qwerty being a flaw at all. The wobble is in closed position at the bottom of the phone, it wobbles from the left to right making sounds when it moves. I asked people here about that and so far nobody else had the same issue.

By "right side buttons" I meant volume, power and fingerprint sensor. Not the keyboard.

1 hour ago, EskeRahn said:

And there is nothing "flawed" in the Pro1 design. It would be just as silly at to claim that it is a "flaw" of the Titan that you need to open it to use the display.. To be fair the Pro1 just targets a user group that want a phone with a keyboard and not an ultra portable pc with phone capabilities. Different target groups, though with overlap. No need to bash either.

I feel like you completely didn't understand my previous post. Where did I want a PC with phone capabilities? I wanted a smartphone with keyboard and issues I mentioned happen in portrait mode.

The phone is annoying to use in portrait, the fingerprint sensor throws errors even when I hold the phone because it's too low and my hand covers it when I hold the phone. I had to disable "press" vibrations because of that because my phone was just randomly vibrating from time to time. Popular phones with side mounted fingerprint sensor have then in upper part of the phones because of that, someone at F(x)Tec decided to put their side fingerprint sensor on bottom part of the phone. It's a very bad design, a flaw. Even when I grab the phone, I usually trigger sensor errors by mistake. Another problem is that there's button directly above the sensor and it's power button. When I press it, I automatically trigger fingerprint sensor error as well.

Camera button feels like it's about to fall out of the phone. There's a slight "press" feel in "focus" stage but absolutely no feeling in "take photo" stage so it's difficult to know when and if you take the photo at all. Honestly I preferred taking photos with volume buttons on my old phone instead of that dedicated camera button in Pro1. Ah, and I forgot final flaw, the vibration motor, it's extremely weak and my old smartphones had a LOT stronger vibrations(even tested it side to side lately). I miss a lot of notifications because of that. These are things that could be done in any smartphone, slider or slab. I thought that the Pro1 will be just thicker smartphone with keyboard, it isn't. If you removed a keyboard from Pro1 and sold it as a slab, it would be below average smartphone that is just uncomfortable to use.

Curved screen is a mistake in Pro1. The phone is heavier than regular one so it would be even easier to break it, also good luck holding a phone in a portrait mode with one hand above your head, for example in bed. It's almost impossible to have a firm grip on a heavy phone like that without touching the sides of curved screen. Even in normal use I find it difficult sometimes not to touch the screen by mistake.

Yes, I wanted just a phone with keyboard, the problem is that the Pro1 doesn't seem to be designed well for portrait use and anyone coming from 2017, 2018 or even 2019 smartphone will see that. This community has a lot people who even used Nokia N900 or Photon Q phones until they got Pro1 so they can't really compare other new smartphones to Pro1.

Anyway, I don't know how you want to open Titan, it's BB Passport-like phone.

In my eyes, F(x)Tec worked so hard on designing the keyboard and repairability of the phone that they forgot about everything else. They could just give production samples to friends and family and told them to use the phone in portrait-only to find all of these issues. Now it's too late.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Gon009

[Artemis-kun 63]

I have stopped caring, and at this point, I wouldn't blame Fxtec for doing the same. This world doesn't deserve to benefit from genius any longer. Welcome to the Idiocracy.

[Gon009 70]

Just now, Artemis-kun said:

I have stopped caring, and at this point, I wouldn't blame Fxtec for doing the same. This world doesn't deserve to benefit from genius any longer. Welcome to the Idiocracy.

Hold up, edgy boy. Pro1 is not any "genius" work and you talk about it like Fxtec is some kind of world savior or god emperor and everyone who doesn't follow your Fxtec religion is worthless. I just wanted a $720 phone that is perfectly usable. If you think that posting flaws and telling what is wrong with the phone is a bad thing then you are just a fanatic.

[glumreaper 144]

28 minutes ago, Gon009 said:

..

Thanks for the detailed thoughts. I'm still lurking the forum trying to decide whether to get one once they reach retail availability, and it's good to see thoughtful feedback, positive or negative.

Right now I don't know if I still want a Pro1. My phone is an important communication tool and my de facto primary computing device. Virtual keyboards suck so I do want a physical keyboard, but not at the expense of the rest of the device's functionality. I'd rather have a good phone and put up with a virtual keyboard, than have a keyboard on a bad phone. I await with interest what happens in the next few months or so...

[SchattengestaIt 559]

1 hour ago, EskeRahn said:

I think you are spot on, on our current needs for the large majority (if not all) of us interested in the Pro1. BUT if there will not be a Pro2 in a couple of years, then the Pro1 might have to last for ten years, and if so we would like it as 'modern' as possible to last usable as long as possible.

I think, and this has been said before, that we get to the edge of technology where the chip doesn't age that fast anymore.

The processor of a Motorola Droid 1 was old when it came out and some of us still used it 5+ years. An 835 will be usable maybe even in a decade. And having enough ram and a long-lasting keyboard, I'm sure I'll use this device for many years.

The only point why I prefer better chips nowadays is for use in emulators and desktop systems, but you wouldn't call that normal usecase. Equally, an i7 (0)700 wouldn't handle games and emulators anymore, but is very good for standard use in office, browsing and so on.

[Gon009 70]

Just now, glumreaper said:

Thanks for the detailed thoughts. I'm still lurking the forum trying to decide whether to get one once they reach retail availability, and it's good to see thoughtful feedback, positive or negative.

Right now I don't know if I still want a Pro1. My phone is an important communication tool and my de facto primary computing device. Virtual keyboards suck so I do want a physical keyboard, but not at the expense of the rest of the device's functionality. I'd rather have a good phone and put up with a virtual keyboard, than have a keyboard on a bad phone. I await with interest what happens in the next few months or so...

The keyboard of Pro1 itself is great but suffers currently from software issues that are being worked on. Once they fix it it will be a mile better than virtual one. Also it takes a lot of time to learn to use it properly. The performance is also great. The phone looks great with opened keyboard but as soon as I close it I feel like the "magic" goes away. I used Samsung mid-range phones before and I hated their performance and planned obsolescence but now I see that they were much more comfortable to use in portrait than Pro1... not because of size but because of button placement, every button on Samsungs was in perfect location. It's not something that only "big" manufacturers can do. It may seem weird to care about these right side buttons that much but each of us actually unlocks their phone during the day a lot and it's not that trivial matter. Even after almost 4 weeks I still need to look at right-side buttons(volume, power, fingerprint sensor) when I want to press them, they aren't in intuitive locations, they are all cluttered in single place. Curved screen is also a big problem, I used a curved screen phone for a moment but I didn't have as big problems with it as I have in Pro1, I don't know why. If you dislike curved screens or you have big fingers, the screen of Pro1 will annoy you a lot. 

Also there are software issues like for example broken screen brightness or clicking sound in earbuds, also the default camera app is horrible and camera button is hardcoded to it. It will be a good sign if F(x)Tec repairs that until general availability. If F(x)Tec won't fix all software issues... I can hardly see myself using the phone by the end of this year.

If you don't want to have Pro1 ASAP then it's indeed good thing to wait and see first what F(x)Tec does with current software issues when they hit general availability. Also maybe next batches will have phones with better quality. I'm not a person that wants to root Pro1 and put whatever alternative system available. I will run stock Android on it until I stop using the phone at all... so if F(x)Tec won't fix software issues I won't be happy. I just wanted a phone with keyboard... I disliked Samsung a lot for their planned obsolescence but Pro1 made me praise how comfortable their phones were to use in daily life(when they still worked correctly). Just to note, I was using Samsung phones from 2012.

So, a person that wants to ungoogle their phone, put a Sailfish OS or whatever system on it because this is most important for them and still uses a > 5 years old phone or maybe even older physical qwerty phone will be happy with Pro1 even if Pro1 would barely usable at all. That's probably why some people go with saying that Pro1 is a "genius" work and god emperor F(x)Tec forbids anyone to tell anything bad about Pro1. Personally, the Fairphone 3 is more "genius" than Pro1 in my eyes. Pro1 is just a phone, very expensive one, and someone buying a phone for a price like that doesn't want to be annoyed when using it. I could live with a slab as well. Sadly, Pro1 shows that it's impossible to revive landscape sliders... unless maybe a big company tries to do it but nobody is going to risk that. So if anyone wants landscape slider out of nostalgia, Pro1 will be probably a last chance to ever have a phone like that.

[michael.bosscha 142]

2 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

And @michael.bosscha I would not call the hinge of the Titan simpler, just more traditional.

... I think you've started mixing up your QWERTYs: the Titan is a BB Passport. My guess is that you're thinking about the Cosmo Communicator?

[spam71 55]

25 minutes ago, Gon009 said:

Even after almost 4 weeks I still need to look at right-side buttons (...)

Lucky you. I haven't even received a notification email about phone being sent. And my order is 7xxx.