On the pre-production status

[glumreaper 144]

40 minutes ago, Gon009 said:

The keyboard of Pro1 itself is great but suffers currently from software issues that are being worked on. ...

Thanks again for another comprehensive analysis. 

I think my requirements are similar to yours. I wouldn't mind trying an alternative OS, but I won't have time to fiddle and learn and solve the ongoing challenges that might present. I'd likely just stick with stock Android or a similar robust rom.

I'm tending towards the thought that I'll probably skip the Pro1 and just pick up a decent 'slab' phone - probably something from the latest Sony range (having a reasonable camera with a physical two-stage shutter button is a must for me, so that part of the reviews of the Pro1 worries me). Then I might try and hack something imperfect but workable with a Bluetooth keyboard.

That having been said, I'm still open to the Pro1 so I'll keep waiting and if it becomes available from a retailer with a good refund policy I might give it a go.

Edited January 11, 2020 by glumreaper

[Siani_8 105]

21 hours ago, Rob. S. said:

What he was very politely hinting at, to which I, personally, am less inclined, is that if you don't come up with a better answer on "how else to explain it" yourself, you're either suffering from a severe lack of imagination, or you're absolutely intent on throwing mud at Fxtec even though you damn well know that there are more possible explanations. 

Well he's not entirely wrong either.  They've changed the site a few times already and had opportunity to remove that and be more forthright about shipping on the main page.  

[VaZso 1,998]

41 minutes ago, glumreaper said:

Thanks again for another comprehensive analysis. 

I think my requirements are similar to yours. I wouldn't mind trying an alternative OS, but I won't have time to fiddle and learn and solve the ongoing challenges that might present. I'd likely just stick with stock Android or a similar robust rom.

I'm tending towards the thought that I'll probably skip the Pro1 and just pick up a decent 'slab' phone - probably something from the latest Sony range (having a reasonable camera with a physical two-stage shutter button is a must for me, so that part of the reviews of the Pro1 worries me). Then I might try and hack something imperfect but workable with a Bluetooth keyboard.

That having been said, I'm still open to the Pro1 so I'll keep waiting and if it becomes available from a retailer with a good refund policy I might give it a go.

I don't feel the situation as bad as @Gon009 feels.
Personally, I have learned these button placements. I agree fingerprint sensor could have been placed a bit higher as I have also touched it occasionally but otherwise I can find convenient positions of my fingers to use it, so it may not be a huge problem.
However, it still has bugs in software like forgetting fingerprint settings after reboot.

For me, it is a really good device.
Performance-wise it is very good, keyboard is awesome, and the image quality of the screen is brilliant, GPS reception is perfect (better than on my previous phone) and network connections are also good (not worse than my previous phone).

Definitively there are pending software issues, but I hope they will solve them soon.

Curved screen is not what I like but I can live with it.
However, some tweaks are needed to prevent accidental touches in portrait mode and when accessing numbers row of keyboards.
For the first problem, "Edge Null" application helps but not the second problem as Edge Null does not have a setting for long sides in portrait mode - but it could be solved the same way.

...but since I have received my phone, I have already used it to speed up my work a lot by using its keyboard.

Also, I would like to keep this form factor live, so I would also bought it if I have just bought another more expensive phone before.
...so to support them because the existence of a full keyboard sometimes can save several situations...

Edited January 11, 2020 by VaZso

[silversolver 849]

2 hours ago, SchattengestaIt said:

The processor of a Motorola Droid 1 was old when it came out and some of us still used it 5+ years.

I'm still using one as a daily driver and I'm not alone. :)

EDIT: I misread that. My daily driver is a Droid 4. It is 8 years old. I do still have a Droid 1 and used a (different) Droid 1 as a daily driver until 2014 (when it was 6 years old) and continued to use another one for non-phone tasks until 2016 (when it was 8 years old.) I still have a Droid 1 serving alarm clock duty right now. It's now 12 years old and still works. Ish. :)

Edited January 11, 2020 by silversolver
Oops

[silversolver 849]

3 hours ago, Gon009 said:

Curved screen is a mistake in Pro1.

Yes, I wanted just a phone with keyboard, the problem is that the Pro1 doesn't seem to be designed well for portrait use and anyone coming from 2017, 2018 or even 2019 smartphone will see that.

I've always said that the curved screen was a mistake, but it may have been inevitable; my understanding is that they couldn't find a supplier for anything else since that is the current fashion trend (and yes, it is all about fashion.)

I despise working in portrait. This is why I don't daily drive a pristine and perfectly-functioning PRIV I own. I still use a Droid 4 as my daily driver. I bought the PRIV to replace it, but couldn't accept the portrait keyboard. I work in landscape almost exclusively. I take the phone out of my pocket and open the keyboard almost 100% of the time unless it's to make a call. I am the target market for the Pro1 in this regard. Portrait is terrible for doing anything more important than playing Fruit Ninja.

[Rob. S. 1,664]

2 hours ago, Siani_8 said:

Well he's not entirely wrong either.  They've changed the site a few times already and had opportunity to remove that and be more forthright about shipping on the main page.  

Yes, so what? They made many mistakes until now, this isn't by far the worst, and the world isn't coming to an end because of either of them.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Rob. S.

[SchattengestaIt 559]

2 hours ago, Siani_8 said:

Well he's not entirely wrong either.  They've changed the site a few times already and had opportunity to remove that and be more forthright about shipping on the main page.  

As far as I know, they changed the site once in july/august and then in november (with the current information). It was wrong all the time but they always expected shipping to happen in the next four weeks. That's at least what they told us.

If they were smart, they'd have deactivated it completely and offered a newsletter with information when it's out.

[glumreaper 144]

4 hours ago, VaZso said:

I don't feel the situation as bad as @Gon009 feels.
 

Thanks for your helpful analysis.

May I ask, what do you think of the camera on the Pro1?

[Shilor 71]

4 hours ago, silversolver said:

Portrait is terrible for doing anything more important than playing Fruit Ninja.

...and even Fruit Ninja is more fun in landscape mode. 😉

[VaZso 1,998]

43 minutes ago, glumreaper said:

Thanks for your helpful analysis.

May I ask, what do you think of the camera on the Pro1?

Basically, its camera is good for my needs.

It can take very good photos in daylight.
I have not noticed the strange blur then sharpen type noise filtering scheme which can be found in the software of several phones.
However, it has some noise filtering settings which I have not experienced with.

In darker environment, it may be a bit noisy, I don't know what filter algorithm do with it or what other phones do in the same situation.

Which is important for me is I can also take photos of subjects in the closer range - it can set focus very precisely.
For example, I could take a photo of one of my PCBs where also texts written on 0805 resistors were readable and I did not have to take much effort to do it like with my older phone. That was possible in normal room light so not in a too dark environment but using artificial light.
It was not even possible with Moto G6 or with my friend's Samsung maybe S8, so earlier I had to find natural light (but not direct sunlight) to make good photos which I may share with others for example to make marketing materials. I think it will perform much better in these situations.

So this phone seems to be even much better for me than my Moto G6 was.

I have not really compared it directly against my Moto G6, but I think maybe G6 can produce a bit better photos in a dark room, but otherwise Pro1's camera is far better for me.

See this: 

I have not tested if it has higher dynamic range than the sensor in my Moto G6 but G6 did not perform well in the case of bright and darker parts of the photo exists at the same time (I mean the sensor itself - this is a usual bottleneck of digital sensors).

[EskeRahn 5,471]

7 hours ago, michael.bosscha said:

... I think you've started mixing up your QWERTYs: the Titan is a BB Passport. My guess is that you're thinking about the Cosmo Communicator?

yes sorry was thinking the Cosmo.

[Siani_8 105]

4 hours ago, SchattengestaIt said:

As far as I know, they changed the site once in july/august and then in november (with the current information). It was wrong all the time but they always expected shipping to happen in the next four weeks. That's at least what they told us.

If they were smart, they'd have deactivated it completely and offered a newsletter with information when it's out.

Nope both times it was clear that general delivery was not going to be in 4-6 weeks because it was still that long if not more for pre-orders.

[Siani_8 105]

4 hours ago, Rob. S. said:

Yes, so what? They made many mistakes until now, this isn't by far the worst, and the world isn't coming to an end because of either of them.

Easy there white Knight.  I'm not attacking King FX.  Just saying that they knew it wasn't ready for generak delivery in 4-6 and chose not to change that even after many many posts suggesting they do so at the time.  

[SchattengestaIt 559]

25 minutes ago, Siani_8 said:

Nope both times it was clear that general delivery was not going to be in 4-6 weeks because it was still that long if not more for pre-orders.

Well, it was as clear as now that it wouldn't happen: We just don't know. It could have been a possibility that their expectations would have worked out since I don't think that they would intentionally lie to us. Were the expectations high? Of course. And they are again. But we often have big expectations for stuff that are usually out of our hands.

[Siani_8 105]

46 minutes ago, SchattengestaIt said:

Well, it was as clear as now that it wouldn't happen: We just don't know. It could have been a possibility that their expectations would have worked out since I don't think that they would intentionally lie to us. Were the expectations high? Of course. And they are again. But we often have big expectations for stuff that are usually out of our hands.

I understand that and believe me, I'm not being negative just realistic.  If the last website update was in fact November, and they expected pre-orders to be done by Christmas and be ready for general sales at that time then it was an unrealistic expectation to think that new orders not covered under the preorder price would be delivered in 4-6 weeks.  Most people on the forum knew that and there were multiple suggestions by others to change the site so no new buyers felt mislead like they apparently do now. Things can happen and that's understandable but it really is their responsibility to do all they can when it does and that site should have been changed months ago honestly.  

[EskeRahn 5,471]

12 hours ago, Gon009 said:

I did not mention letter shifted qwerty being a flaw at all. The wobble is in closed position at the bottom of the phone, it wobbles from the left to right making sounds when it moves. I asked people here about that and so far nobody else had the same issue.

By "right side buttons" I meant volume, power and fingerprint sensor. Not the keyboard.

I feel like you completely didn't understand my previous post. Where did I want a PC with phone capabilities? I wanted a smartphone with keyboard and issues I mentioned happen in portrait mode.

The phone is annoying to use in portrait, the fingerprint sensor throws errors even when I hold the phone because it's too low and my hand covers it when I hold the phone. I had to disable "press" vibrations because of that because my phone was just randomly vibrating from time to time. Popular phones with side mounted fingerprint sensor have then in upper part of the phones because of that, someone at F(x)Tec decided to put their side fingerprint sensor on bottom part of the phone. It's a very bad design, a flaw. Even when I grab the phone, I usually trigger sensor errors by mistake. Another problem is that there's button directly above the sensor and it's power button. When I press it, I automatically trigger fingerprint sensor error as well.

Camera button feels like it's about to fall out of the phone. There's a slight "press" feel in "focus" stage but absolutely no feeling in "take photo" stage so it's difficult to know when and if you take the photo at all. Honestly I preferred taking photos with volume buttons on my old phone instead of that dedicated camera button in Pro1. Ah, and I forgot final flaw, the vibration motor, it's extremely weak and my old smartphones had a LOT stronger vibrations(even tested it side to side lately). I miss a lot of notifications because of that. These are things that could be done in any smartphone, slider or slab. I thought that the Pro1 will be just thicker smartphone with keyboard, it isn't. If you removed a keyboard from Pro1 and sold it as a slab, it would be below average smartphone that is just uncomfortable to use.

Curved screen is a mistake in Pro1. The phone is heavier than regular one so it would be even easier to break it, also good luck holding a phone in a portrait mode with one hand above your head, for example in bed. It's almost impossible to have a firm grip on a heavy phone like that without touching the sides of curved screen. Even in normal use I find it difficult sometimes not to touch the screen by mistake.

Yes, I wanted just a phone with keyboard, the problem is that the Pro1 doesn't seem to be designed well for portrait use and anyone coming from 2017, 2018 or even 2019 smartphone will see that. This community has a lot people who even used Nokia N900 or Photon Q phones until they got Pro1 so they can't really compare other new smartphones to Pro1.

Anyway, I don't know how you want to open Titan, it's BB Passport-like phone.

In my eyes, F(x)Tec worked so hard on designing the keyboard and repairability of the phone that they forgot about everything else. They could just give production samples to friends and family and told them to use the phone in portrait-only to find all of these issues. Now it's too late.

I confused the mentioned Titan with the Cosmo, sorry.

Ah! the top buttons! I thought you meant the buttons on the keyboard shifted to the right, my bad too.

The fingerprint sensor is perfectly placed for the right index finger in landscape. For portrait the Pro1 is clearly designed for right handed people, that will hold the device in the left hand, and operate the display with the right. And here the sensor sits almost perfect for the left hand ring finger. I fail to see how your suggested placement would be better for right handed people in both landscape and portrait?

Are you operating it with the left hand holding it in your right hand? Or in the right hand one handed? If so I hope they will overwrite Androids default behaviour and allow us to use the device up side down (there might be 3. party apps out there that allow this?). This would put the sensor at your right middle finger.

I have no real opinion on the camera button. I practically never use it, the few times I did to test it worked OK. Though I do agree that a better feedback in the software when pressing the key half way or fully would be nice. But that would be software.

On the vibration I too have missed notifications, especially while walking. My GUESS is that it is related to the extra weight of the solid build Pro1. The same vibrator would much easier move a light plastic slab half the weight. So I agree that this can be considered a design flaw. To move the Pro1 better with a vibrator they would have needed one with a substantially larger counterweight, I do not know if they were unable to squeeze that in, or they simply did not take the extra device weight into account when choosing the vibrator used. Or perhaps they deliberately avoided it, as this (for obvious physical reasons) would have added substantially to the total weight (and would have been more power hungry).

I'm not a fan of curved edges either, but from an operational point of view, it is a matter of software, to allow some black ignored zones, leaving a less logical display, And I hope they will offer that, as an option. But yes an edge display will be more vulnerable than a flat display with physical bezels over the edges (that would have added further to the size and price of he device though, I believe they stated somewhere that edge screens are cheaper than flat ones due to the higher volumes produced)

[Guest]

Interesting discussion. To do a final judgment, you will need to consider the competitive business environment in which fxtec is evolving, how the competitors are communicating about deadlines (are they any better?), and what part fxtec can really influence.

[glumreaper 144]

4 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

...

Thank you, I found your analysis helpful as well.

[SchattengestaIt 559]

7 hours ago, Siani_8 said:

I understand that and believe me, I'm not being negative just realistic.  If the last website update was in fact November, and they expected pre-orders to be done by Christmas and be ready for general sales at that time then it was an unrealistic expectation to think that new orders not covered under the preorder price would be delivered in 4-6 weeks.  Most people on the forum knew that and there were multiple suggestions by others to change the site so no new buyers felt mislead like they apparently do now. Things can happen and that's understandable but it really is their responsibility to do all they can when it does and that site should have been changed months ago honestly.  

Well, in October they expected delivery by end of that month, in November it was the 29th and in december "before Christmas". Currently they say that all orders will be completed by the end of this month, at latest by the beginning of February (but with shippng starting in January. I've asking the support every month and in every mail there's a margin of around four weeks (and I'm a late order).

I know your feel, but given that they really expected to fulfill their shipping schedule, the website would technically be correct...

Were the expectations too high? Of course. But that's a different problem.

[michael.bosscha 142]

Hmm... When in Consumer Mode (that is, just scrolling through stuff) I usually operate my phone with just my right hand; I rarely hold with one and operate with the other. When I want to type something I almost always grab my phone with both hands, be it portrait or landscape.

[Wef 0]

  Could it be that financial consideration is a factor and multiple orders are taking preference. The loss of a single order will not hurt nearly as much as a multiple. 

 

[windraver 63]

hmm.. its a good thing I'm ambidextrous. wow.. pg 113...

150 here we come! (everyone on this thread should get a prize if we hit 150 pages)

[Kabbone 36]

oh man, now I am struggling to decide which phone I want. The Titan looks nice and I was always pretty satisfied with my BB Q10 and always wanted to get a Passport but the end of BB10 stopped me. Titan with Sailfish would be the perfect match for me 🤔

[EskeRahn 5,471]

35 minutes ago, Kabbone said:

oh man, now I am struggling to decide which phone I want. The Titan looks nice and I was always pretty satisfied with my BB Q10 and always wanted to get a Passport but the end of BB10 stopped me. Titan with Sailfish would be the perfect match for me 🤔

Despite my love for the Pro1, I would say that if a Passport suited your wishes and needs, The Titan sounds like it would be perfect for you.

[EskeRahn 5,471]

3 hours ago, michael.bosscha said:

Hmm... When in Consumer Mode (that is, just scrolling through stuff) I usually operate my phone with just my right hand; I rarely hold with one and operate with the other. When I want to type something I almost always grab my phone with both hands, be it portrait or landscape.

Then the "reverse portrait" mode holding it 'upside down' would most likely be perfect for you. I found apps that forced "Reverse portrait", But oddly none (yet) where auto rotate included Reverse portrait (For may of these app, the setting is there put it does not work on the Pro1. I have no idea if it is a Pie or a current Pro1 limitation)

ADD Those that prefer holding it in the right hand (for either one or two handed operation), might consider this minor app, and select "Reverse portrait". And it works nicely with the default setting of the Pro1 of forcing to landscape when open.
Unfortunately the Auto rotate in this app does NOT do "Reverse portrait", so this would leave the display up side down during calls.... Of the many apps I tried, Either "Reverse portrait" does not not work or Auto does not work.... (Have no idea if the issue is Pie or the Pro1 here)