On the pre-production status

[EskeRahn 5,350]

11 hours ago, michael.bosscha said:

That €650,- was a pre-order price, and perhaps some people are still on that one. But for regular orders, it's more expensive. We were warned about this in advance...

My unpaid pre-orders have been cancelled. But an order with the status "on hold" has been reported above to survive.

The 'only' issue here are the the users that were told we could wait for a possible Scandinavian layout, that suddenly have to pay an extra ninth on top of the price - if the layout will ever have enough user interest to be offered.

I do not know if they also cancelled unpaid orders WITH a €100 indiegogo moto mod coupon. If cancelled too the €718.80 rather than €549 is almost a third extra...

[Doktor Oswaldo 901]

10 hours ago, Tim6263 said:

I am pretty sure that 'legal action' was completely out of the question, I don't think you should even have mentioned this.  It is only possible for a contract of sale.  Unless money has been paid, or goods have been supplied with pre-arranged & signed credit - there is no legal contract of sale.  That's my understanding of UK sale-of-goods regulations.

I do not know the specifics in the UK but I would be astonished if this would not be a contract there. That would mean that the contract law works completely different there than in the rest of Europe.

You agreed to pay a certain amount of money and FxTec agreed to deliver you a device => contract. Legally 'pre-orders' do not exists, these are just contracts of sales with a certain condition (later delivery date, maybe uncertain delivery date).

Well since FxTec gave us the possibility to move back from the contract without any damage this may allow them to do the same. But I doubt it and it is thin Ice in all cases. FxTec did cancel the contract without the agreement of the other party. At best they have not stated this possibility clear enough. Since they explicitly did say that there is no deadline for the payment, no payment is not enough to cancel the contract.

I am no lawyer and don't want to say it was legally wrong or not. That's why I stated it as "it may allow legal actions" and not as it does. It is only the amateur opinion. I do not want to encourage anybody to take any legal actions anyway so I do not care if it is true or not.

What I do care about is FxTec and this move was highly unnecessary! We warned them about the consequences and asked multiple times if it is really true that pre-orders are valid forever. They ensured us multiple times that this is the case. This is not only a legal question but again an example of misinformation to your customers. This is especially bad for people waiting for a scandi-layout, since they may have taken another layout for the lower price if they had known.

The biggest shame here is, that I am absolutely sure that nobody at FxTec wants us any harm, but their sales process has had a lot of misinformation which could lead to problems.

I know big companies do things like that all the time, but they have the name to survive a shitstorm and the resources to survive a legal process. FxTec is missing both.

[Krzysieq 55]

The cut-out corners of the keyboard deck do seem like a poorly executed afterthought. Quite sad, if anything they should've just left the screws visible but not protruding in any way - the look of steel torx screws would be a lot more premium than some cheap-looking stickers. Good thing it's not ducktape. That's something I can live with though, unless under those stickers there's nothing to stop dust and other life's tiny debris from coming inside the phone. What's more worrying is the uneven keyboard backlight. I guess I'll just stay tuned for official reviews coming about to see if I'll fork out the money for the pro1. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Krzysieq

[Doktor Oswaldo 901]

32 minutes ago, Krzysieq said:

The cut-out corners of the keyboard deck do seem like a poorly executed afterthought. Quite sad, if anything they should've just left the screws visible but not protruding in any way - the look of steel torx screws would be a lot more premium than some cheap-looking stickers. Good thing it's not ducktape. That's something I can live with though, unless under those stickers there's nothing to stop dust and other life's tiny debris from coming inside the phone. What's more worrying is the uneven keyboard backlight. I guess I'll just stay tuned for official reviews coming about to see if I'll fork out the money for the pro1. 

Chen said this on TMO:
 

Quote

The back light layer of the unit Eske is using was from a small batch of samples. Production components comes with mass produced and in theory should be much better. (And I can see being better.)

 

[EskeRahn 5,350]

15 minutes ago, Doktor Oswaldo said:

Chen said this on TMO:
 

Quote

The back light layer of the unit Eske is using was from a small batch of samples. Production components comes with mass produced and in theory should be much better. (And I can see being better.)

Thanks for the info! Was not aware of that, modified the review.

[Kabbone 36]

5 hours ago, Doktor Oswaldo said:

I do not know the specifics in the UK but I would be astonished if this would not be a contract there. That would mean that the contract law works completely different there than in the rest of Europe.

You agreed to pay a certain amount of money and FxTec agreed to deliver you a device => contract. Legally 'pre-orders' do not exists, these are just contracts of sales with a certain condition (later delivery date, maybe uncertain delivery date).

Well since FxTec gave us the possibility to move back from the contract without any damage this may allow them to do the same. But I doubt it and it is thin Ice in all cases. FxTec did cancel the contract without the agreement of the other party. At best they have not stated this possibility clear enough. Since they explicitly did say that there is no deadline for the payment, no payment is not enough to cancel the contract.

I am no lawyer and don't want to say it was legally wrong or not. That's why I stated it as "it may allow legal actions" and not as it does. It is only the amateur opinion. I do not want to encourage anybody to take any legal actions anyway so I do not care if it is true or not.

What I do care about is FxTec and this move was highly unnecessary! We warned them about the consequences and asked multiple times if it is really true that pre-orders are valid forever. They ensured us multiple times that this is the case. This is not only a legal question but again an example of misinformation to your customers. This is especially bad for people waiting for a scandi-layout, since they may have taken another layout for the lower price if they had known.

The biggest shame here is, that I am absolutely sure that nobody at FxTec wants us any harm, but their sales process has had a lot of misinformation which could lead to problems.

I know big companies do things like that all the time, but they have the name to survive a shitstorm and the resources to survive a legal process. FxTec is missing both.

assuming of your nick, you are german and don't know what you are talking about. In Germany it's the same like someone said before, the contract is just accepted when the item got shipped out, before you just made an "offer" for buying the product.

 

And for the people complaining about the raised price. Sorry but isn't that your fault you wanted to wait? (excluding the pre orders, because it's a bit of a different story like EskeRahn's case with the other layout) Every manufacturer/retailer has the right to adjust the price of his product as he wants it to be.

[Doktor Oswaldo 901]

24 minutes ago, opel.tobias said:

assuming of your nick, you are german

Nope, wrong.

24 minutes ago, opel.tobias said:

assuming of your nick, you are german and don't know what you are talking about. In Germany it's the same like someone said before, the contract is just accepted when the item got shipped out, before you just made an "offer" for buying the product.

 

And wrong again. Firstly what is about items that are paid and not delivered? If we follow your statement that would be okay because there is no contract because the item didn't got shipped? BS.

You are even entitled to get  your damage  paid because something you ordered did not get delivered or not in time.

For example: If you order 200 Sausages because you want to sell them over the lunch, and the butcher is to late (lets say 2:00 pm).
The butcher will have to pay your damage if the delivery time is part of the contract.

The question is not if this is a contract or not, but if they are allowed to leave it by their own. This is harder to answer, since labelling it pre-order and allow us to bail out anytime may allow them some freedom (and it may have been in the toc). Officially stating that preorders are valid forever and then force people into more expensive contracts is a bold move in any case.

But again missing the point. No need to discuss the law background here. It would have been an easy case of saying or writing: "Preorders are valid until XXXXX" problem solved. No matter what the legal background is.

 

24 minutes ago, opel.tobias said:

And for the people complaining about the raised price. Sorry but isn't that your fault you wanted to wait? (excluding the pre orders, because it's a bit of a different story like EskeRahn's case with the other layout) Every manufacturer/retailer has the right to adjust the price of his product as he wants it to be.

Again missed the point. They told us explicitly, that we could pre-order now and pay it once the scandi layout is here. People may have bought the phone earlier but waited because the company told them so.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Doktor Oswaldo

[Kabbone 36]

6 minutes ago, Doktor Oswaldo said:

Nope, wrong.

And wrong again. Firstly what is about items that are paid and not delivered? If we follow your statement that would be okay because there is no contract because the item didn't got shipped? BS.

You are even entitled to get  your damage  paid because something you ordered did not get delivered or not in time.

For example: If you order 200 Sausages because you want to sell them over the lunch, and the butcher is to late (lets say 2:00 pm).
The butcher will have to pay your damage if the delivery time is part of the contract.

The question is not if this is a contract or not, but if they are allowed to leave it by their own. This is harder to answer, since labelling it pre-order and allow us to bail out anytime may allow them some freedom (and it may have been in the toc). Officially stating that preorders are valid forever and then force people into more expensive contracts is a bold move in any case.

But again missing the point. No need to discuss the law background here. It would have been an easy case of saying or writing: "Preorders are valid until XXXXX" problem solved. No matter what the legal background is.

Don't get me wrong, the communication could have been better (like your example with "valid until") to clarify the things, but I don't see possible legal actions there. Of course you can force to get your money back and then you should also get it, but you have no right to get the product. Your example with the sausages sounds a bit silly, because no private person orders online sausages for reselling. Just remember we are talking about private orders not any company stuff. Did you never got a cancelled online order?

 

6 minutes ago, Doktor Oswaldo said:

Again missed the point. They told us explicitly, that we could pre-order now and pay it once the scandi layout is here. People may have bought the phone earlier but waited because the company told them so.

like said in my brackets, the layout is a diffierent topic and here I am with you, but there are just some people complaining who just want to order the regular one.

[Doktor Oswaldo 901]

A last update to point out what I wanted to say. I will not discuss the issue any further (promised :-))

I don't care if legal actions are possible or not. But they did some shady moves.
I don't recommand anybody to try any legal actions at all. While I am sure it is a contract I think you likely lose because of special conditions of pre-orders.
All I say is: FxTec must work at that. Stop communication wrong dates. Stop saying the price will only increase outside of the US and then increase it everywhere. And stop this preoder thing. Sit together look what happened, make a statement and tell us how you plan to continue (last part is optional).

[Doktor Oswaldo 901]

To be clear: I do not feel betrayed or something by FxTec. I am not angry at them. I just wish the phone becomes a smashing success.
In my eyes it is important to not send potential customers away angry. Because every customer you get at the beginning results in a lot of potential customers.
It would be a pity to do genius hardware and then loose the customer with unnecessary stuff like that.

This conversation drifted completely in the wrong direction (mainly because of me, sorry). So please focus on my feedback not on the legal stuff.
Please write an email to the time if you are one of the unlucky persons waiting for the scandi layout. They may resolve it.

[Kabbone 36]

47 minutes ago, Doktor Oswaldo said:

A last update to point out what I wanted to say. I will not discuss the issue any further (promised :-))

I don't care if legal actions are possible or not. But they did some shady moves.
I don't recommand anybody to try any legal actions at all. While I am sure it is a contract I think you likely lose because of special conditions of pre-orders.
All I say is: FxTec must work at that. Stop communication wrong dates. Stop saying the price will only increase outside of the US and then increase it everywhere. And stop this preoder thing. Sit together look what happened, make a statement and tell us how you plan to continue (last part is optional).

ok, I'm with you at the communication point 🙂

[illie-vanilli 58]

2 hours ago, Doktor Oswaldo said:

They told us explicitly, that we could pre-order now and pay it once the scandi layout is here. People may have bought the phone earlier but waited because the company told them so.

On this same trail of thought you could also imagine the scenario where they cancelled those pre-orders because they were categorized under the wrong keyboard lay-out. Prices that are now mentioned on their site are for the two already existing keyboard lay-outs (qwerty and qwertz). 
 

Maybe when the Scandinavian lay-out is going to be available it will be listed at the old price and/or is going to go through a similar pre-order scenario (hopefully not the same amount of waiting time of course) as with the current 'available' devices.

 

I do agree on the communication-argument however, Fxtec could take away alot of these speculations/insecurities by communicating these changes and cancellations. All I'm saying is that cancelling those existing pre-orders doesn't necessarily mean the price of the Scandinavian lay-out Pro1's will be same price as is mentioned now.

[cz800cr 2]

On 10/22/2019 at 5:26 PM, Erik said:

Sorry, the update hasn't gone out - I was told by PR it was meant to be emailed last week. We are likely waiting on more updates from Chen who is now back in the factory. We are on track for shipping on the 29th, that is not changing.

When will the email be sent?

[elvissteinjr 355]

You can skip the email if you send me a shipping confirmation instead at this point.

The 29th is almost there and you still sounded confident so far... though to be honest you sounded confident each time we had a delay, but things look good so far. I'd prefer if you'd just drop the PR layer in-between (you are dropping some info on the forums here at least) but I guess you have your reasons.

[windraver 63]

Folks complaining about the price are funny. These guys need to make some income if they're going to remain in business. Those of us who paid early are helping keep them in business and if you don't then I suppose you missed it. I still it's worth it anyways because there is no alternative. I mean, there's no DIY to get ourselves a QWERTY device so it's definitely a "shut up and take my money" thing.

[anonim001 105]

Correct me when I'm wrong, but as far as I remember cancelling the unpaid pre-orders was part of their terms - I even asked Eric if that's true and he said that there is something about it, but there was no deadline to pay at that moment. So, despite the on-forum promises, they had the right to cancel the unpaid pre-order since... well, terms are terms.

[EskeRahn 5,350]

4 hours ago, windraver said:

Folks complaining about the price are funny. These guys need to make some income if they're going to remain in business. Those of us who paid early are helping keep them in business and if you don't then I suppose you missed it. I still it's worth it anyways because there is no alternative. I mean, there's no DIY to get ourselves a QWERTY device so it's definitely a "shut up and take my money" thing.

From my perspective the point is not that they raise the price as such, but that they cancelled the pre-orders that were made waiting for a possible Scandinavian layout.

They could have clearly stated that if the Scandinavian layout were ever to come out (they several times said this depends on the demand) then it will be at a different price. Had we known this I'm quite sure many in Scandinavia would not have waited, but bought the QWERTZ print version, that is quite close to Swedish/Finnish, and reasonably close to Norwegian...

[npatel1050 132]

13 hours ago, cz800cr said:

When will the email be sent?

 

13 hours ago, elvissteinjr said:

You can skip the email if you send me a shipping confirmation instead at this point.

The 29th is almost there and you still sounded confident so far... though to be honest you sounded confident each time we had a delay, but things look good so far. I'd prefer if you'd just drop the PR layer in-between (you are dropping some info on the forums here at least) but I guess you have your reasons.

Seriously, I'm still expecting shipment on the 29th but saying you will send an official update and then not following through makes me worry.

[Zimeon 11]

3 hours ago, npatel1050 said:

 

Seriously, I'm still expecting shipment on the 29th but saying you will send an official update and then not following through makes me worry.

Your not the only one... Really hope the reason they skipped the email was that the update email will be "we're shipping!"

[Geobueck 0]

Another question concerning the design of the keyboard... A new post from fxtec on instagram shows the keyboard without the little cutouts in the corners to protect and hide screws... Which Design is the final one? With or without the covered coutouts in the corners? 

[Parhelion 114]

The version with cutouts should be the final one, the clean design was used in prototypes, as also visible on the latest twitter post, and changed for repairability.

[Wasmachineman_NL 99]

I really wish the newsletter we were supposed to get will be a shipping confirmation instead.

[Keyahnig 80]

Any news or is still everything going as planned?

[adidas88 29]

Dear f(x)tec - Team,

as usually I have to explain myself before so that everyone understands what I am saying exactly. I am not "upset" about any delay. It's a preorder of an unknown product from a start up etc... so again it's not about the date or the price or anything else. It's simply about the communication.

There were some progress made with some updates from production. But I really really hope that tomorrow you or at least some users could post a confirmation that some devices were send.  It got again very quiet from you after your announcement of a mail (which wasn't send) and now it's one day before the 29th. So I hope that if you have anything to say, do it before the 29th. Don't tell us tomorrow that something didn't work. Yes I saw the pictures of the boxes. But why couldn't someone post a picture of the cases for the pro1? It was asked several times. (Even by me through the support channel)

All I am saying is to keep us in touch. In my opinion your PR-person (whoever this is) should check once a day the official forum and try to respond to questions (like the case or the unnecessary headphones) and keep us up to date. Especially now as the "mood" is a little tense (because you said you will collect the money 2-3 weeks prior to shipping).

So again. It's not about the delay. It's about keeping us hooked. Every social media post you make is just flooded with questions when it will be shipped. I wonder why?

So I really really hope for all of us that tomorrow someone confirms the shipment.

[Erik 1,487]

Hi everyone,

We know we've been a little quiet in the past days, and that is because there is not much new to add into a new update - we are on track to begin shipping tomorrow, on the 29th. Some of you will receive their dispatch notice tomorrow, with everyone from the first batch following by the end of this week. We are currently waiting on stock to arrive at our warehouse in Hong Kong, which will dispatch orders directly to our Asia and Oceania based customers. The first batch is being held at the Chinese export customs at the minute.

Alongside our Asian pre-orders, we will, at the same time, split the batch to stock-up our warehouses in the UK and the US. Those will be sent by air freight.

I have been told that a video update is being prepared for you, and I am assuming it will be sent anytime in the next couple of days. The update will not contain any bad news as we are on track with things, but it may provide more details on each one of our warehouses' schedules.

Erik