Pro¹ X – state of production and delivery

[KaKi87 8]

If this was a TV show, it would have consumed dozens of buckets of pop-corn, be rated 2-3/5 and commented as the most boring one of all time 😂

[Nikolai 43]

1 minute ago, KaKi87 said:

If this was a TV show, it would have consumed dozens of buckets of pop-corn, be rated 2-3/5 and commented as the most boring one of all time 😂

The trick is not to film it in real-time. An one-hour-broadcast would be thrilling 😄

[guest274577 7]

59 minutes ago, Nikolai said:

... I would at least assume they'd publish an IGG update early next week...

Unfortunately, they have been answering "very soon" to various questions for the past 6 months or so. Make of that what you will.

[guest274577 7]

9 hours ago, EskeRahn said:

They certainly are obliged to pay cancelled pre-orders back, but I do not know in what order they are required to serve their obligations.

Seeing as they are not "obligated" to send our perks (as you yourself, among others, have repeatedly stated), there is no question what takes higher priority.

What they actually Are obligated to, now that I take another look at the IndieGoGo terms of service, is the following:

d.  If you have received the Contributions from your Campaign, but are unable to deliver Perks, issue refunds to Contributors.

Edited August 27, 2023 by guest274577

[EskeRahn 5,459]

19 hours ago, guest274577 said:

What they actually Are obligated to, now that I take another look at the IndieGoGo terms of service....

I bet it is even more complex, as the conversion of the old Pro1 orders to Pro1X most likely are not forseen. Not that this excuses the lacking refunds.

[Den 0]

Fun times, I'm waiting for my (non-IGG) order to get refunded since Oct, 2022. Initial response was about "refunds will be done within up to 3 months", then "it's still not complete", then simply "we have no update". It's been almost a year, no updates in the ticket unless I ping them. The last couple of attempts remain ignored.

[guest274577 7]

5 minutes ago, Den said:

The last couple of attempts remain ignored.

Pretty sure they do not care at this point. If they really were as concerned with their beloved backers and customers as some make them out to be, Im pretty darn sure they would have found a way to ship all those 1000+ Pro1Xs supposedly just sitting in their warehouse/factory wasting away. 

My personal theory is that the reason they "dont want" to collect more money for shipping fees, is that ones they have shipping money but no devices to ship, they would be in deep sh*t.

[KaKi87 8]

1 hour ago, Den said:

Fun times, I'm waiting for my (non-IGG) order to get refunded since Oct, 2022. Initial response was about "refunds will be done within up to 3 months", then "it's still not complete", then simply "we have no update". It's been almost a year, no updates in the ticket unless I ping them. The last couple of attempts remain ignored.

You should ask your bank for the refund.

[guest274577 7]

On 8/27/2023 at 6:40 PM, EskeRahn said:

I bet it is even more complex, as the conversion of the old Pro1 orders to Pro1X most likely are not forseen. Not that this excuses the lacking refunds.

How does this make things more complicated?

The remaining Pro1 orders/perks were either converted into Pro1 X pre-orders, which would give them the right to cancel the pre-order for a full refund, or they were converted into a Pro1 X perk, where IndieGoGo Terms of service says they should refund the backers if they cant deliver the product. Which they cant. Right?

[Rob. S. 1,660]

15 hours ago, guest274577 said:

IndieGoGo Terms of service says they should refund the backers if they cant deliver the product

The word "should" makes the statement completely meaningless.

[guest274577 7]

16 minutes ago, Rob. S. said:

The word "should" makes the statement completely meaningless.

Well, it does not say "should" in the terms of service, it says "Issue refunds".  Just as I quoted above.

[KaKi87 8]

i.e. the keyword when talking third-person is must.

[Rob. S. 1,660]

Ok, but it is still nonsense. Indiegogo knows just as well as anyone else that when an entrepreneur fails to get the product out in a late stage of their project, there's a strong chance they'll also be broke and *cannot* refund.

The problem here is, specifically when compared to, say, Kickstarter, that Indiegogo officially publishes such rules for entrepreneurs and boasts safety and security for backers, while on one hand not enforcing those rules, even where they're enforceable, and on the other hand not being explicit towards backers that there's a real chance they'll lose every cent they spend in backing something. Kickstarter is much more explicit there. 

I've followed (thankfully not backed) one company that used to sell fairly expensive manual camera lenses on Kickstarter. They became quite a hype among some groups of photographers and sold well, but not well enough to be profitable. At some point, the company started to introduce new lenses and gather new funds through them just to finance manufacturing of the previous lenses. Maybe they even hoped to come clean again at some point, at the time. But because Kickstarter doesn't allow an entrepreneur to start new campaigns before existing ones are fulfilled, they could not continue there – so they went to Indiegogo, and followed up on what at that point already was a scam, until they finally had to declare bankruptcy, and so a large amount of backers never got either their expensive lenses or their money back.  

Fxtec never had such a scamming intention, but bankruptcy is what could have happened to Fxtec already a long time ago. As dim as the chances might be at this point that we either see our phones or get our money back, I still see them at least slightly above zero, which obviously is, even if just slightly, better than the final end of the other case.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Rob. S.

[Doktor Oswaldo 904]

19 hours ago, guest274577 said:

How does this make things more complicated?

The remaining Pro1 orders/perks were either converted into Pro1 X pre-orders, which would give them the right to cancel the pre-order for a full refund, or they were converted into a Pro1 X perk, where IndieGoGo Terms of service says they should refund the backers if they cant deliver the product. Which they cant. Right?

38 minutes ago, Rob. S. said:

Ok, but it is still nonsense. Indiegogo knows just as well as anyone else that when an entrepreneur fails to get the product out in a late stage of their project, there's a strong chance they'll also be broke and *cannot* refund.

The problem here is, specifically when compared to, say, Kickstarter, that Indiegogo officially publishes such rules for entrepreneurs and boasts safety and security for backers, while on one hand not enforcing those rules, even where they're enforceable, and on the other hand not being explicit towards backers that there's a real chance they'll lose every cent they spend in backing something. Kickstarter is much more explicit there. 

It is not only a matter of not enforcing it, it highly doubt they could enforce it. Just because a company writes something in their TOS doesn't makes it law. I mean the only thing IGG could do is to delete their campaign, which would help no one expect maybe IGG.

So the TOS line is worthless. If you want your money back, you would have to follow the laws of the sellers jurisdiction, because that is where the contract is valid. I have no idea what the right steps for the UX are. But you probably have to set them a deadline, then report them to some sort of local authority. Then all the complicated stuff about IGG and preorders comes into play and god knows what happens then. Even if insolvency proceedings are starting with your Money on the line, the chances to get all your money back are probably small.

[zundappchef 100]

Based on information from Indiegogo, my research indicates that since January of this year, several individuals at FXtec have been laid off and have transitioned to other companies. This situation has likely taken a toll on FXtec's staff, including its founders. The journey has been quite a rollercoaster, beginning with the development of a functioning phone that garnered satisfaction from many users. Subsequently, a second production run was undertaken. However, challenges emerged, including chip-related scams, the disruptive impact of COVID-19 (despite excuses that were often not entirely true), and the withdrawal of backers' support, compounded by Indiegogo's pressures.

Throughout all of this, FXtec persevered, making earnest efforts to ship phones. Unfortunately, Expansys added to their troubles by mishandling shipping payments and even selling devices meant for backers in bulk. Consequently, backers grew increasingly frustrated due to further delays and what could be perceived as misleading information.

I had foreseen this situation unfolding long ago. Even considering the funds received from backers, these resources were insufficient to sustain the company for such an extended period without new revenue streams. What perplexes me is that the FXtec team, armed with significant studies and notable credentials, failed to acknowledge this looming issue. My perspective is from that of a backer, and I express these thoughts as such.

My assertion stems from the realization that, despite continued investments, the project has exceeded its feasible trajectory. At this juncture, the most prudent and expedient course of action would be to conduct a large-scale sale of the remaining devices. The proceeds could then be allocated to refund those who ordered through the FXtec website. Any remaining funds might be directed towards Indiegogo, followed by the closure of the project.

Despite my modest credentials, I possess a fair amount of business experience and the benefit of several lawyers' insights. I engaged their expertise to explore the hypothetical scenario of this matter being litigated. These legal professionals are spread across the Netherlands, the USA, and the UK. To summarize a complex narrative, FXtec has legal obligations that could personally impact them financially concerning customers who purchased phones via their website. Failure to address this could render them liable for various UK laws, possibly resulting in legal consequences, including imprisonment. To mitigate this, they must fulfill their obligation to deliver devices or provide refunds. The Indiegogo aspect, where many backers contributed funds, provides FXtec with an avenue to close the door swiftly without exposing themselves to legal actions from backers or their legal teams. Backers might potentially take action against Indiegogo through a class-action lawsuit, adhering to US law.

It's plausible that FXtec has already contemplated this conclusion.

[Rob. S. 1,660]

@zundappchef While I'm not a lawyer and cannot comment on the legal particulars you state, I think your post is as concise an assessment of the current situation as possible. I don't even feel inclined to add anything. 

Except maybe that Fxtec might be taking the chance to wait and see if any buyers or backers will take legal action at all. Given the limited number of devices sold, that might even be a reasonable bet. Regarding Indiegogo, I don't expect them to be in danger of facing any legal consequences; I think there have been too many much graver incidents there over time without anything ever happening to Indiegogo (at least nothing that would have become public), and I suspect their terms and conditions are bulletproof as far as they themselves are concerned.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Rob. S.

[Juergen 2]

I ordered a phone over their Website (not a baker) 2 years ago. Since this phone was paid by my company (company phone) they alerted in July the UK police fraud department. Let' see..........

[sequestris 710]

How many of the people who did not get their phone are US customers who did NOT get it through Indiegogo?

[xelo 10]

On 8/31/2023 at 12:23 AM, zundappchef said:

At this juncture, the most prudent and expedient course of action would be to conduct a large-scale sale of the remaining devices. The proceeds could then be allocated to refund those who ordered through the FXtec website. Any remaining funds might be directed towards Indiegogo, followed by the closure of the project.

And, as a backer of the Pro1x and owner of a  deceasing Pro1, I would be ok with that. I think it's time to close the door and move on.

[guest03847 9]

1 hour ago, xelo said:

And, as a backer of the Pro1x and owner of a  deceasing Pro1, I would be ok with that. I think it's time to close the door and move on.

And personally, as a backer of a Pro1x I will most likely never recieve, if they do end up officially selling the devices meant for backers, I will explore any available legal avenue, as that would be extremely doubtful business practice, and most likely illegal in most countries.

(Taking money for creating a product, with a promise of delivery of such a product to the sponsor in case creating said product succeeds, and then selling them off to someone else entirely).

Just my two cents.

Edited September 7, 2023 by guest03847

[claude0001 1,340]

2 hours ago, xelo said:

I think it's time to close the door and move on.

Agree 100%. This party's over.

[EskeRahn 5,459]

40 minutes ago, claude0001 said:

Agree 100%. This party's over.

Sad, but it certainly feels so.

[phukfxtec 23]

so.... the last update was about shipping, meaning the devices are done and just sitting in boxes somewhere? like how hard is it to ship things? just put the devices in the mail like JFC how hard is it to put a stamp and go to the post office...

selling devices on xpansys has crossed the line to genuine fraud?

now they make new products without fulfilling their previous product?

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by phukfxtec
too upset...its just a phone....

[marmistrz 93]

This is so sad, and I think we'll have to wait years and years for the next slider smartphone, if it ever happens. It's even sadder if you see the market these days, with vendors keeping removing features and flagships that are missing features such as the notification LED or the headphone jack.

Edited September 8, 2023 by marmistrz

[PoongZY 15]

5 hours ago, phukfxtec said:

so.... the last update was about shipping, meaning the devices are done and just sitting in boxes somewhere? like how hard is it to ship things? just put the devices in the mail like JFC how hard is it to put a stamp and go to the post office...

selling devices on xpansys has crossed the line to genuine fraud. 

now they make new products without fulfilling their previous product, why anyone would support i don't understand.

what a **** joke. **** you fxtec for stealing my money.

Yes, they are shipping deckHD and hopefully they make enough to ship pro1-x and it's updates.